lewende

Thanks for the reminder - just got a reply from the hotel confirming kids stay free as long as they share bed with us.

MikeFromTokyo

+1

I'm glad the imposition of having to pay a small tax you owed to the hotel, and which is required by law, did not alter your feelings about Japan...

I am surprised they did not collect the tax at check out when you settled the bill. It is odd that one could manage to get on the shuttle van without first settling the bill.

jimmychang

The law doesn't say the customers have to pay as long as somebody pays it. In the case of reward nights, Goldpassport should pay for it.

hailstorm

Actually, the letter of the law does say that the customer is the one that has to pay.

http://www.town.hakone.kanagawa.jp/h...oken01-07.html

I'd welcome your interpretation of Japanese law if it differs from mine.

OsakaWino

I believe you're referring to the onsen (hot spring) tax of 150 yen per person. Unless there's something very new, neither Hakone City nor Kanagawa Prefecture charge a hotel occupancy tax.

None of the other Hyatts in Japan have an onsen, so no onsen tax.

It is customary in Japan for guests at hotels with an onsen to pay this tax regardless of whether or not the hotel room is comped. Every country has its own tax peculiarities (never seen any as peculiar as the diverse state sales taxes in the US) so paying the onsen tax is just a case of "when in Rome"...

OsakaWino

Actually that says:

The person responsible for collecting the onsen (hot spring) tax at the operator of the onsen or spa bath will be designated by the Town. The responsibilities of the person responsible for collecting the onsen tax are as follows:
1. Collect the onsen tax from guests using the onsen.
2. Report and submit the collected onsen tax within the prescribed period.
3. Record in the tax collection record the number of guests using the onsen, the amount of tax collected, and the number of guests exempted from the tax.

So it would seem that it is possible for some guests to be exempted from paying the tax. And it does not specifically say that it is the responsibility of the guest to pay the tax, but rather that it is the responsibility of the designated person at the onsen operator (in this case the hotel) to collect the tax.

suite2suite

Yes, you are correct.
After checking the Statement from HR Hakone the description of the tax is: Hot Spring Tax and it is 150 yen per person per day.

We did not use the Onsen.... so the question is:
"Was the Hot Spring Tax charged correctly and does it matters whether a guest chooses to use the Onsen or not?"
We already know that HR Hakone does not differentiate between a guest who pays for the room and one who uses points or redeems an award.

MikeFromTokyo

Because it is a resort property and access to the onsen is unlimited and unregulated, it is irrelevant whether or not a guest uses the facility. The costs the tax is intended to cover are fixed costs, therefore at a hotel with unlimited access to an onsen it is reasonable to charge every guest for the right to use the baths.

I can't imagine anyone objecting to a 150 yen onsen tax.

OsakaWino

Yes, technically you are correct. Guests who do not use the onsen would technically not be liable for the onsen tax.

As stated in the translation above, it is the responsibility of the operator of the onsen (in this case the hotel) to record the number of guests who use the onsen and collect the tax from them. However, in practice, of the many onsen hotels I've stayed at, only one asked me at checkout if I used the onsen, and the reason there was that the onsen was operated as a separate facility open for use by the general public at a fee but complimentary to hotel guests. The hotels just charge the tax to all staying guests, since that is much easier.

I guess you could say that you did not use the onsen and not pay the tax. We ourselves always use the onsen, so it has never been a question for us. I don't think there are many people who refuse to pay the tax because they did not use the onsen, but I certainly have not taken a poll on that question.

For reference, at hotels that have a large bath facility that is not fed by a natural hot spring (such as HR Osaka and Conrad Tokyo), there is no onsen tax. The onsen tax is only for natural hot springs, kind of a preservation tax.

hailstorm

This reminds me of the "public television tax" that Japan residents are obligated to pay. Basically, if you own a television, then you must pay a yearly fee (closer to $150 than 150 yen!) to support public television, even if you never watch it. While many people falsely claim to have no television when the collector comes around, or even just flat out refuse to pay the tax (as it's extremely rare that the government goes through the trouble to take legal action to collect), it is "mandatory" nonetheless.

I suppose that, in theory, you could try and pay 150 yen less than what is stated on your folio (using cash to do so) and claim that the tax does not apply because you never used the onsen facilities, but most people would not put themselves through such an embarrassing ordeal to save a rice ball's worth of money.

OsakaWino

I'm sure that if anyone refuses to pay the onsen tax at HR Hakone (or any other upscale onsen hotel), the hotel will first try to explain the tax and then waive it with continued refusal rather than press the issue. I have no idea if the hotel would then pay the tax on behalf of the guest or simply not count the guest as having used the onsen.

I strongly suspect that it is a "toothless" tax, meaning that there is authorization to collect it, but no provision for penalty for guests who refuse to pay (cf Japan's laws banning smoking in restaurants). On the other hand, I'm sure there are provisions for punishing facilities who collect the tax but do not properly submit it.

BTW, the tax is clearly indicated as an additional charge on the "rate details" and reservation pages for the HR Hakone.

suite2suite

Understood and many thanks to:
OsakaWino, MikeFromTokyo, hailstorm and jimmychang for your comments and explanation.
Until today I first thought it was an accommodation tax and since no other Hyatts in Japan or anywhere else for that matter ever asked me to pay a tax when I use points, I found it strange that's all.

lewende

Another quick question: will a 3-night stay be just right? Will a 4-night stay be too long? Thx.

hailstorm

Two nights should be plenty for Hakone. Three if you really, really want to see every little mom & pop attraction there is.

OsakaWino

We stayed 3 nights, but we're VERY slow tourists. 2 nights is plenty for seeing the sights; if you want to get spa treatments (which I think are very overpriced at the HR Hakone unless there is a special offers) or spend a lot of time relaxing at the hotel, you might stay 3 nights.

If you have 4 nights to spend in the area, I would recommend 2 nights at HR Hakone and 2 nights at Hilton Odawara, which is a very different experience.

If HR Hakone is still running their shuttle from Odawara Station, the 2 are very easy to combine, and even if you have to take the train, it is still not that inconvenient.