RBH58

The Australian government considered taxing points earned as a "fringe benefit" a number of years ago, and then (thankfully) dropped the idea. I think that would have changed everything.

Fortunately my (US based) company allows us to keep them and I'd accumulate about 150,000 miles a year on average which I use mainly for upgrading personal trips.

DownUnderFlyer

This has nothing to do with opinion. In Germany it is the law that the employer can claim the miles/points earned for business travel. If they employer exercises this right than there is nothing you can do about it other than to look for a different employer.

anat0l

I think the opinion was more about why the law exists.

I wonder if you could "get around" the German system by offering your services to a company as a self-employed contractor... OK I'm arguing out of my league here...

Law is law and you can't do much about it (unless it is unconstitutional, but you'd still have to fight).

Now a little O/T here....

In the last job I had for an Australian mining company, if we were allowed to travel for business, any miles received we would be able to keep and use for personal travel etc. The reasoning in the policy was that the miles were (in whole or part of) a reasonable compensation for the worker for the travel (i.e. time spent away from home/family, travel stress, possible loss of productivity due to travel, etc.).

FWIW working for my university in Australia we are allowed to keep all FF benefits (miles, status, etc.) even if the travel is paid for by the university (of which funds may come from a grant, the government, project account etc.).

I think the original concern in Australia about keeping miles etc. was due to the travel patterns of our politicians (esp. federal), of whom we all love to hate....

mapu

Isn't that an invasion of privacy. And I think there's something in the M&M rules and regulations that you are not allowed to share your password with a third party

My company allows me to keep the miles, but I had to sign that I will only use them for upgrades on business trips.

Flying Lawyer

Why should it be an "invasion of privacy". You certainly need to agree to it when signing your employment contract and you have at the latest agreed to it when you gave your password and details to your employer. And you might then be in breach of M&M TOS, but this is M&M's and your problem. M&M is very well aware of this and they will "tolerate" this.

MojaveFlyer

Back to the question of whether you fly on your own time or your employer's time... In my consulting business I got tired of "eating" the travel time, with associated delays, to go to one day business meetings. I looked into the travel policies for my various clients (all law firms) and found them to be wide ranging. So I simply tell my clients I will bill for my travel time, door to door (my house to the first place I go in the destination city, be it hotel or their office). I don't get a lot of objection to this, and I am in demand enough that I can turn down jobs if the client is unwilling to meet my terms. Of course I often work (for them) on those flights, and if I work for someone else in flight, I do not double-bill my hours. (I am in the US so slightly off topic, sorry).

Flying Lawyer

You are certainly right, but we are talking about two different issues. I am (which is pretty obvious from my nick) in professional services, too.

There is no doubt that - notwithstanding alternative billing agreements - we (= my Firm) bill our clients for all hours spent by the relevant partner or associate. And this includes travel time. And we certainly make use of the travel time in the best interest of our clients.

However, I would personally never even dream about that I need to be paid extra personally for my travel time. As a partner, I have my share in the profit, as an associate, I had my package. Both of this compensates my full time.

MojaveFlyer

I saw one firm whose policy was to bill for travel time only if it occurred during normal business hours. Which was a bit silly as the associates were all putting in 14+ hour days on the case. I saw another firm which had a policy of no billing for travel hours - but bury the time in other billing details. I tried the "I'll bill for hours that I work in the air" approach but to be honest, some of those hours were pretty poor quality work product. Since I'm independent, I could just make my own, simple, rule, and I did.

I do have a sort of full time job as well, and when I travel for the job, and I'm salaried so there is no way I could even dream of trying to extra pay for travel time. As you say, it's just part of the package there. My company will not pay for travel above Y, they say "Use your miles to upgrade." Not unfair I think.

I find it very annoying that when I travel for a U.S. government agency and am required to use their travel agency, that I can't get FF miles. My butt is in the same seat and I'm suffering just as much in the aluminum tube. Oh well.

mag

This sums it up. My employer has a very active management of M&M Miles and saves quite a bit of travel budgets by booking people on awards if available (I assume).

Of course they tolerate it because they cannot annoy their biggest clients. AFAIK it says in the TOS something like "only you and other entitled persons" should be able to access the account.

mjbjosh

I know that theoretically those miles would basically increase your gross income, leading to a higher tax and social welfare obligations.
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When you sign the T&C (AGB), dont they usually say that a mile is worth 0.000001 euro cents or something?

supermasterphil

Yes. But. It has been pointed out a couple of posts further up that Lufthansa made a deal and pays an annual amount so this should have been taken care of.

mjbjosh

I have to travel almost every week, and each time I get paid one half of my daily remuneration (unlesss I am travelling on a day when I am working and get paid regardless). I think this is only fair, and they don't claim my miles. I would sack them if they did.

Flying Lawyer

It's not only a deal but - as always in German tax law - you even find it in the statutes: To may recollection § 37a EStG. BTW: This should be one of the reasons what LH offers you an incentive (lower SEN requalification hurdle) to relocate outside Germany: They safe money.

supermasterphil

Interesting. I always thought their only reason was because for Germans they have a limited choice of airlines.

So, am I theoretically doing something "illegal" if I as a German resident, working in Germany, having my M&M address outside of Germany use my business related miles for leisure? Because LH did not pay it's "fee" (or whatever you want to call it) to the German tax authorities?

Flying Lawyer

The applicable taxes on your miles are not paid. Unless you declare your miles to the fiscal authorities I would call it tax fraud.