ffay005

AY currently flies to five cities in the US. For a rather small airline, I'd say that's impressive and it suits my needs just fine. I can connect to AA to continue my journey either in the US or to South America, and AA treats me well because they see me as EXP on their lists.

I still fail to understand how BAEC OWE would be better for someone based in TMP compared to AY+ Plat. It's clear Yazata isn't satisfied with AY+, and that's fine, of course, but I really fail to understand what more BAEC OWE could bring.

Post Scriptum

Whaaat, are QR redemptions so low, I have some 150k avios sitting in my baec account and have been wondering what to do with them, that would definately be a worthwhile option to fly QR J return on such low redemption rate.

lkrt

ffay005

Flying Yazata

My original reply was lost, so I'm rewriting everything now. Something may have been forgotten.

I was actually talking about First as the third class, not PE. But of course maybe not that obvious, although from a redemption and premium tier perk viewpoint it is, because then you could use credits to upgrade revenue J tickets or get an occasional complimentary upgrade, not necessarily for operational reasons. However the issue of three service classes is a mere sideline issue here, which just means premium tier FFP members with paying J tickets need to get other perks (like already pointed out by @intuition), rather than the occasional F upgrade.

I didn't say they're a poor benefit as such (i.e. in their own right) or that they should be withdrawn from the FFP scheme. Don't get me wrong here.

Yes, they're a lackluster benefit, because that's pretty much the only thing Platinums and Lumos get, which makes a tangible difference. At least that's the perception I get from your posts in this subforum and whenever I've considered going AY+ with my flights. The tarmac transfers might be nice at times, but I'd like to experience it first, before I comment on it's actual usefulness. My point is that it's pretty lackluster, because the competition out there within OW has better offerings.

Sorry, but you're oblivious to the rest of OW or then just have never ventured out from the AY+ circles enough. I did mention LATAM Black and Black Signature, as well as Iberia Plus Infinita and Infinita Prime. With LATAM Black and Black Signature one can basically upgrade all Y flights to J, subject to availability, as one gets unlimited upgrade coupons each membership year one retains Black/Black Signature (or attains the level for the first time). And one also gets a number of companion upgrade coupons, every year. It's perhaps the most generous OW premium tier perk out there. As for IB, it's two or four upgrades per membership year to Business Plus (LH)/Business (SH), depending are you Infinita or Infinita Prime. No, AY is not the only OW carrier out there doing something like free upgrades (BTW, I didn't even mention AA) and LATAM does it better. Yes, you'd have to fly a lot of LATAM, but then again the same goes for Lumo.

As for the phone number, there's a tier based difference with BAEC, meaning GGL gets more a bespoke service and its own number. AFAIK Lumo has the same number as the rest? Please correct me, if I'm mistaken. Never the less, the phone number is a side thing in this debate.

Why would I want to travel only or primarily with AY? Doing four flights with BA isn't hard at all, if one isn't being all too HEL centric. I get two just by flying to LHR and two can be either connecting to elsewhere in Europe or going to a longhaul destination. Easypeasy. As for IB, I can combine two IB operated and coded flights with BA operated or codeshared flights. For instance I'm in 2019-2020 flying only four BA flights for status and that's a simple Club Europe trip to escape midsummer in Finland (yes, I said escape - tired of the traditional stuff here). I have a multitude of options with BA and IB to retain status, unlike with AY it would be very Asian centric and especially Sino centric, because that's where their focus is. If I would want to travel a lot to Asia, then sure, AY+ status could be an option, but I much rather have the global BA network as my homebase.

Bingo! You got my point. My gripe is that not only does the premium tiers of AY+ get less than what they could, but the vouchers would mean I'd have to plan my leisure trips mainly around Asia, if I want to maintain status and use those vouchers. I'm fine and dandy travelling in Asia and I'm going there for a month later this year, but there's more to the world than just Asia. Now with Avios I can upgrade myself to Club World or First to any continent. Or redeem Club Europe redemptions with standard redemption payments (that fixed price list that has a name I need to check). Yes, with AY+ I can do OW redemptions, but so can I do with BAEC. With Avios I can do cabin upgrades with BA tickets on BA, IB and AA, which is nice. It gives me a lot more options to fly upgraded longhaul trips than just one carrier (AY).

I never said it's amazing. It's just the newest widebody plane available and thus it can be seen as more premium or of a more fresh quality. I stand corrected on SFO, didn't remember which one it was.

I don't think it's impressive, but decent or okay. However I do point it out, because I think in the ball game AY is trying to play, you need more to offer on the Western side of the Asian connection strategy, rather than what they now have. I do like the fact that our national flag carrier has expanded, but from my viewpoint the focus is just very Sino centric. Yeah, we can make dosh on more Chinese tourists either coming to Finland or having a stopover in HEL, but for my taste and personal needs, doing only or mainly AY doesn't offer what I want.

Most of you seem to have missed what my main point was and which I actually also laid out in plain. For someone who wants to be OWE, travelling only or mainly for leisure, it's worth to look at the bigger picture and consider ex-HEL/TMP/TKU/OUL as not something that automatically means AY+ is the way to go. I'm just trying to make a point about having a wider prospective, because frankly I at least haven't so far been convinced I'd be smarter by going with AY+ for OWE. It's not just a status level issue to consider, but also what you can do with the credits. In the redemption department, sans any J upgrade coupons, the Avios scheme is just more versatile. The only thing that slightly makes it easier is to have one of those co-branded credit cards and swapping award credits to status credits. But then again I can reach OWE with BAEC cheaper, plus I can do more with the Avios credits raked in. With AY+ I'd have to maintain Platinum or Lumo all the time, if I'd want to keep my credits from expiring.

Do notice that I'm not inherently opposed to AY+ or saying I could never, ever join the program (nope, I don't even have an account now). I do however think that it's worth to consider other options for OWE, if flying mainly or only leisure trips, even when your travel is ultimately always originating in Finland. Sure, BAEC is not for everyone and I don't claim it's superior in every aspect or for every scenario, but it's not like AY+ is inherently the #1 choice for every scenario and for everyone originating in HEL - no less for TMP. I recommend keeping an open mind.

I for instance said that I could consider as an "once in a lifetime" challenge to attain Lumo from scratch, so that I'd see is there anything to be had there. Smart? Nope, but then again I like challenges. Although not the type which means sitting on board ATR 72s for tens of trips and ending up somewhere in Kuusamo for multiple trips. As for Platinum, doing HEL-ARN/OUL roundtrips in a multitude sounds crazy. It's just an idea I don't find pleasant. And the same goes for cheap Y roundtrips to DEL - also a multitude needed there. So overall I just get OWE easier with BAEC, because I don't limit my trips to being AY centric. But as for keeping an open mind: I've since 2016 kept an eye for how AY+ evolves and I'm always open for a status match challenge or changing to it altogether, if I see a plausible plan for doing it. So far the options are just more expensive than with BAEC or would require too much AY and an Asian centric travel pattern. I might consider again in 2020, if someone comes up with thrilling suggestions. With my current travels I'll be OWE until 2021.

IMO the AY specific benefits aren't good enough, if I'd have to give up on my Avios. And as I don't want or need to fly mainly or only AY, maintaining status with BAEC is pretty trivial. Just do at least one intra European trip every membership year, plus London is a nice layover or stopover. Or travel to MAD and do a trip to PMI with IB. And that on top of my actual leisure trips, which some or all include BA, but necessarily don't have to.

Clydez

AY has sh**ty network thats my biggest complain for AY, but im staying with it. Cuz what do you expect from a small airline out of 5mil population?
BA huge network, good for BA, which is great for me as well, can use it to reach the place where AY doesn't. eg i use it for the North American and Indian destinations.
But im doing what i can to avoid BA. 1. LHR is a mess. 2. Maybe i have been unlucky but most of BA equipment looks and feels disgusting to me. like the plane has been to a war zone, super worn out or not properly cleaned.

There is no which programme is absolute better but which one fit you better. based out Finland? well fxck it, AY is probably the programme you can get most out of it.

on22cz

To react a bit: Your perspective is different, but generally correct. For having OWE, AY is probably not the best/cheapest/easiest. For easy J upgrades (even on just AY), the picture looks different. If you are getting OWE for travelling Y and enjoying all the perks, you probably aim for the cheapest option. If you aim for J upgrades and, I dare to say, inexpensive local redemptions, you will appreciate the vouchers in AY+.
However, LATAM sure plays a different league. Remember the discussion here about uncertainty when clearing J upgrades? With LATAM, nothing is certain until the check-in time / gate boarding preparations. How would the board here agree to having unlimited upgrades, but all priority and availability based? I would totally welcome the LATAM system as J is rather rarely fully booked on my flights and I can be sure that with Platinum/Lumo, the upgrades would clear in most cases. For AY: Do you think people would stop buying J tickets? No, because many people want the certainty + higher points earnings. What would it mean to keep buying Y in terms of status retention? Of course, you would have to fly a lot more to maximise on this perk and maintain the status. I already commented on this earlier, but here it fits again. It may be more difficult to earn top tiers with LATAM nowadays, but I think the most important role is general regional environment in companies. It's a pity AY didn't have balls to try this out with Lumo introduction...
Iberia perks - I don't see it any better, though.

Lumo has its dedicated number.

Avios let you upgrade to IB/BA/AA J, but isn't AY J way above those? I can have many negative comments about AY and AY+, but the truth is that their J product is very good, just a bit unknown. They can do many improvements in details, but reasonable and big picture evaluation just talks in favour of AY.

Flying Yazata

I agree that it's a big accomplishment with 5,5 million Finns (or did you just put 0,5 million on "holiday" in Siberia? ), but notice what I said about the ball game AY has chosen. That's also HEL is being expanded so heavily. If you try to play with the big boys and you aggressively reach for Asians for years, not to mention joining the Joint Venture for TATL flights to/from NA, then you have to be par with the others. And because you're smaller than them, then you need to be different and attract new customers in a whole different manner. That also includes your FFP and that's where we come to Platinum and Lumo. I've all the time been happy with AY doing their Asian expansion, but other than that, I don't think they've amped up their service enough yet, at least not in terms of their FFP. Sure, their soft product seems to improve on the airside, but the FFP seems to be lagging behind on its top tiers.

747-400, CW, upper deck. AY won't beat that in my books.

It's not that straightforward as I've tried to point out, especially for us that gain their status based flying only/mainly leisure trips. As I've said, for a business oriented profile it's most likely different, but hesitate it being the case, if your company policy allows J revenue tickets.

Yes, I agree that there's a travel profile (one with lots of cheap Value tickets to DEL etc. or hoarding cheap segments) that benefits from those cupons and I don't hesitate recommending AY+ for those, although I doubt it's the most convenient and comfortable way for attaining OWE. Sure, at least you attain the J upgrades, but for the same cash I can just as well pay for booking class I with BA, AA, IB and AY, sipping bubbly drinks in J. I myself qualify for OWE by getting BAEC Gold with tier points and I rake them by travelling premium cabins, because it's A) cost effective and B) seriously more comfortable. Now this means I can still be in J onboard AY, but I don't first need to sit a helluva lot of ATR72 flights or do some other masochistic stuff, like multiple runs to DEL in Y. The end result is the same, but as a BAEC member I just do it cheaper or more cost effective overall, because I earn Avios and those are IMHO more versatile than AY's award credits.

Indeed, I did read the whole thread at the time, although I only lurked there. But it did make me feel more convinced that AY+ isn't at least getting any better, if that only tangible top tier perk is evaporating and upgrades are no longer as readily available. Now combining that with what @intuition said about paid J as a top tier member, I just see less reason for myself to consider doing AY+ Platinum for OWE. I'd be delighted to attain status with AY as it's less commonplace abroad than BAEC and BAEC is now slightly "enhanced" again as the status based luggage benefit no longer applies to cheap tickets, but AY+ and IB members do get the perk with BA.

However the situation with the upgrade coupons really make me hesitate about it and thus I've concluded that BAEC is still the one which is overall better for OWE, if one travels only/mainly for leisure (like myself). And for me specifically, with all my price optimized, paid longhaul J tickets, AY+ hasn't got much to offer, except amusingly enough a better luggage allowance with BA. But as I've said, I'm open to new solutions and I'm actively monitoring the competition. If BAEC goes haywire after Brexit, then I can just transfer my Avios to IB. IB+ doesn't require IB flights for status and I can the take a timeout, reconsidering AY+.


I second your opinion. I don't envy any of you Platinums and Lumos, but rather I think at least the Lumo tier members should honestly speaking get something more. My gripe is very much of the type that there's nothing that makes me want to attain status with AY+, minus what I mentioned above. Compare that to BAEC GGL, which many FT'ers want to attain even with extra flights, because the upgrade vouchers are really worth it (or so the other FT'ers claim at least). Also GGL has improved redemption availability, because they can get into revenue booking classes. Not saying it's superior to Lumo, but Lumo just feels somewhat limited in comparison to what it could be. If I'd go for a flight frenzy, then I'd most likely do it with BAEC for GGL status. But sure, I stand by my word, so a Lumo run can be done, if I'm convinced by someone and there's a smart way to do that kind of stupidity. As for LATAM: yes, it's different from AY, but then again so are domestic upgrades with AA.

Not better (except the landside limo transfers), but just mitigating that AY isn't the only one doing upgrade coupons.

Thanks! I stand corrected.

I can comment on that later this year in a more experienced manner (coming up multiple longhaul and shorthaul J flights with AY), but my J experiences with BA and AA have been more relaxed and more polite than my Y experiences with AY. And there's been a more personal touch with BA, but that has been due to being a BAEC customer. As for IB, I've had an okay experience with them in J.

NoWindowSeat

Lots of good points from different angles.

For the sake of keeping this valuable discussion relevant, let's just forget those OUL/ARN/whatever segment runners and multiple whY class turnarounds in DEL, those few crazy who get their whatever statuses that way have lost their right minds and no frequent flyer program will ever be built around that kind of profile.

Ed Size

In my opinion a frequent flyer program brings benefits to somebody who need to fly frequently, it´s not about flying frequently to get this benefits. Since no normal human want to spend that amount of time in an airplane just to get this benefits, you rather take your money and visit a restaurant or a bar instead.

Nothing wrong to optimize your benefits if you are flying frequently anyway.

intuition

About the value of upgrades.
Yes, they are indeed valuable but here is one perspective:

Platinum Pekka flies 10x HEL-HKG every year in Y. For him it doesn't really matter if waitlisted upgrade for flight A or B clears. He can easily use all his vouchers and points in a year and feel platinum upgrades are very valuable.

Platinum Pertta flies 5x HEL-HKG every year in J. For her, the vouchers value can only be used by buying a ticket in a cabin she doesn't want to travel in. Not only has she fewer options to redeem the vouchers, it gets pretty dang important that the waitlist clears on that exact trip when she tries to use it. For her, the vouchers have the same nominal value, but the value is affected by if it actually can be monetized.


It seems this perspective is lost a bit. If there was a F cabin, the J flyer would have somewhere to be upgraded to. Then Pertta and Pekka could both enjoy the perk of flying one class above what they usually do. But there isn't and there never will be. So the J flyer technically never gets upgraded, he/she just gets a discount, which makes the upgrade something different than for the Y flyer.

Ed Size

Exactly. And in my experience I never could use an voucher to upgrade holiday flights (to the US or HAV), I only could use them for upgrades on my HEL-BKK routine - so the benefit goes direct to my company (even if I m allowed to use vouchers and points for private travels).

reflektia

Then again, for Platinum Paavo who fies 10x HEL-HKG in F would have no use for vouchers. And even for leisure travel he would have to compete with Pertta/Pekka who probably in his opinion don't deserve upgrades.

WilcoRoger

This more or less is in line with my general valuation of about 3:1 AY vs BA/AA. Of course this is just the burning side, one should also look at the earning side.

Think again - how about a QF F redemption SIN-SYD-SIN? Co-pay was sub £100 (IIRC)

Hear, hear on both counts (as an ex-BAEC OWE) LHR is OKish coming/going to London, but for connections its on par with (or even worse than) CDG and behind FRA (my three least fav connecting airport)

The CW dormitory might have been revolutionary 30 years ago, but today it's just that - a dorm. 8 abreast in 2019 in a premium cabin, facing backwards with mostly no direct aisle access? C'mon, get serious! And that's just the hard product.

I avoid it when there are better options out there - which is most of the time.

Avios is a great currency though.

The two things that could make AY+ a stellar programme are:

1/ OW wide upgrade opportunity (voucher, point)

2/ Redemption/upgrade into revenue buckets (Plat/Lumo) á la BA GGL - let's say redemption & upgrade if "I" bucket is still available and if Light is still sold, make Y redemption available. If it sounds too excessive, make it available 1x for Plat and 4x for Lumo per membership year.

ffay005

I really don’t know what to make of all this, Yazata. Either you’re a troll, or I just don’t understand anything. You’re based in Tampere, LATAM is a great airline because they give unlimited upgrades, you want to have BA Gold but only fly four segments on BA, an airline that does not even fly to your home airport, you love Avios and obviously their copays, too… Okay, I’m out of here, sorry.

I used to credit to AA because it was easier to get AA Plat = OWS than AY Silver = OWR at the time. Most my flights were with AY, so I can certainly understand cases where people credit to an airline that they do not fly most frequently on. But with my current flying patterns as a HEL based flyer who flies to at least four continents annually, AY Plat is still definitely my best option as far as OWE status goes.

Also, I hope everyone bears in mind that the tips or tricks here https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/30770977-post3.html are for the extreme case where one starts from scratch and wants to have Platinum status without any real need to fly. I assume most of us fly a lot for whatever reason, so we accrue points or segments mostly from that, and may add the occasional MR, be it DEL or something else, when needed to reach a higher level etc. So it’s not like we collect 150k by flying to DEL and back in Y, and then lay on our laurels looking at the shiny black card, waiting for the qualification period to end so we can start all over again.