Thanks!

Nice find LatusElAl!!!
Anyway, I know on my end that I didnt get it wrong, someone who is very reliable told. He is the same one that gave me the heads up on that LY will lease the 787 and not buy.
Even before I heard about it, we discussed it here on this forum, when "jonnye" brough tthe info.
I am 100% confident that they were atleast discussing it at one point.
Notice that in the pics in the press release, those First Class seats in the seatup featured - just look like very very nice and flat business class seats. New generation First class seat have more room, are wider, have better features and not just ones that comes out of the seat.
Well we will just have to wait and see ...

2 options;
1. They had the idea of intorducing this J+ but it was cancelled becasue they realized all the points we made here about it or;
2. They just haven't announced it yet, and dont plan to until the new a/c arrive or almost all the long haul a/c have these new interiors.

Some of each:
I have been told by reliable sources within EL AL that the two new 777s will be used as a pilot project to gauge customer response to the new concept. The idea is (as they told me, in their own words) that Israelis are quite happy with a Mercedes and don't require a Rolls Royce. They plan to offer the same level of service as is current in First (there was, it seems, a fierce debate about this, and many of the points raised here were discussed) but with a slightly less roomy cabin. This will allow the price to be reduced and thus ensure a better utilisation of the cabin. The product will be significantly better than the business class product, but not quite on the level of British Airways or Singapore Airlines First Class.

It remains to be seen whether this will work or not. I am sceptical, but will wait until the new aircraft arrive before giving judgment.

So, if I understand what your source is saying correctly, perhaps the "pilot/trial" with the new 777's is a J+ REPLACING F?

That is what I have been told. However, it is designed to be more of an F- than a J+, if you get what I mean.

If that is the case, then where did we get this idea of 4 classes of service from? They aren't doing econ-biz-prem.biz-first. They are just downgrading the F product somewhat. I actually think its not a bad idea. Truth is that the service in F right now is a bit overkill. Nice, but overkill. Dinner is like a wedding at the Waldorf. The seats are awesome, but all that space (on the 744) for 8 seats? Even for F that doesn't make much sense - especially when F is nearly always 5 out of 8 seats (or 4 out of 6 on the 777) upgrades from C.
Look, IF I am right (and I stress IF) then the folks at LY aren't so stupid after all. For example, it might piss us all off to hell, but a heck of a lot of us are buying full-Y class these days to jockey for the upgrade - something we never would have done two years ago. They got us to pay a significant % more for the same seat/product - and have succeeded in actually selling much of the business cabin which wasn't the case a few years ago. I remember the days when business was 80% upgrades! Today, except for mid-week, upgrades are scarce.
Maybe here with the "F-" they will sell a greater percentage of first.
Maybe.
Then again, IMNSHO, if they tinker any more with the upgrade policy (like making only Y upgradeable), they will at the very least LOSE much revenue because either:
1) BEST CASE - Most of us won't buy Y all the time - we'll go down to V class since PL status won't mean much of anything anyway.
2) WORST CASE - Many of us will defect to other carriers. El Al would lose its edge.
OK - I am way off on a tangent here - but I do think its all ultimately connected and part of the decision making on the issue of classes of service, so I'm posting anyway.

I don't think that service in F is 'a bit overkill' at all. In fact, what you might call 'overkill' is what might be the very factor which makes me want to travel longhaul in F! I don't think that dinner is like 'a wedding at the Waldorf' - or the portions at the Waldorf must be shrinking, but it is still very nice and there is always more on offer if requested! But the food and wine are one of the reasons I go in F. In fact, the food and drink service is one of the things which will not be changing under the new 'F-'. Yes, there is too much space on the 744, but that is for a technical reason: there is fixed equipment which cannot move, and not enough room for 3 rows of seats. Problem. Even in the 'new' F- there won't be room for 3 rows. It seems that it will only be on the 777s with 12 seats in the cabin in 2 rows.

The problem EL AL has with F is that so many people have so many different reasons for going in F that they are having difficulty in defining their target market. That's why (I believe) they are using the new 777s as a pilot scheme, to gauge customer reaction.

Just to clarify about this "4-Class" option that everyone has been questioning about. It was never "4-Class"! It was Economy/Business/BusinessFirst.

Last year (almost to the day) when I delivered the news to this board, it was off the back of a private meeting between Mr Haim Ramano and LY's top PL's on their USA/Asian routes. It turns out that 20 of these such people attended (one of them being a colleague of mine).

In that meeting Mr Ramano discussed the possibility of LY ditching FIRST class and brining in a 2 Class Business cabin, known most commonly in the industry as 'BusinessFirst'. This was a product that would have very similar seats but would price SLIGHTLY differently from each other (this is where the confusion arose about a 2 Class Business Cabin). And as I quoted in this thread ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=556907 ).This is what arose from the meeting, and it was mentioned that they were at the early stages of planning but wanted to run it by their most FQTV's.

The main emphasis from this idea was to increase the FIRST class cabin but to bring the prices down somewhat to within reaching distance of the Business Class so that people could make the jump to 'A' class fares without the hole in their pocket.

Low and behold there are increasing FIRST class while taking almost $1000 off the ticket prices to say the USA / FarEast, while slightly increasing the Business Class fares by around $300-$500 on the same routes..

So what we have is a Business & FIRST class that will offer near to, if not the same service with enhanced touches for the FIRST class cabin.

So to sum up....THERE IS NO 4-CLASS CABIN....and there was never going to be a 4-Class cabin!

Good luck LY....you gonna need it.

NB: Rumour circulating that BA might be switching the 777 to a 744 on the TLV/LHR route and moving those 777's in place of the 767.

You are right, its not possible to fit three rows, but it is possible to put between 10 - 12 FIRST Class seats - just like they are configured in SA, CX and SQ.

If the 112 First Class seats they got, do not include "spare" then it would make sense to have 12 in 777 and 10 in nice configuartion in 744. !0 seats in 744, is like in SA were 6 of the seats are individual seats and 4 are double seats in the middle of the cabin (instead of the buffet table there now)


I dont think there was ever a big confusion that it might be a 4 class cabin. We were mostly worried about what the regular business will be like. Since so little info was given, some of us were worried that the regular business will be more like a premium economy cabin.
No that every thing seems much clear, I am much happier. It seems the regular business will be a major upgrade from the current option. :)

But that's the thing, you see.
Take CO for example, they have a Business-First cabin.
But it's a combination of both; they don't offer a normal Business class cabin in addition to Business first.


Indeed they are.


Really? First I have heard of this, but if it is true this is excellent news!
Maybe post something on the BA board? maybe an insider can confirm something...

Speaking to the CSD last week about the infamous CIV scores (I’m 056 at the moment) and he was telling me that August could see a big announcement abut some short term additional aircraft which will free up some of the big birds for TLV.

I'm reluctant to post anything just yet until I can get some more info.

I remember the day when I bought a discounted ticket to the US or Far east for $700, used an upgrade voucher (that cost 300 - 450 points back then) and got upgraded to First 72 hour before the flight.
So for $700 + 300 points I was sitting in FIRST :)
Upper deck of 742.
Today I am paying around $1600 - $1900 for that same ticket plus 750 points and sitting in crappy 777 and 744 Platinum seats.
I was a priveledge child, so got to fly business/first from a very young age, its interesting how the pax changed over the years in business and first.
I was just discussing it with a few friends, that as kids we flew First/business much more than now as grown ups. Actually none of us have flown First for over 7 years, I havent flown First as a pax (I used to be a f/A in LY) since no more double upgrades.