My understanding is that they will not open F at all if there isn't at least one paid F pax. Once they have that one pax they will then upgrade C pax (and the rare very lucky, very high status double upgraded Y pax).

If you want to upgrade your comfort from Business, you go First.
And if LY won't supply you with a lie flat bed in their Business class cabin, (and force you to pay for an upgraded Business class cabin) vote with your feet and go BA or VS.

Tell me something else…
What happens with the business traveler who’s company's travel policy allows him/her to travel Business? Will they be allowed to travel "premium Business" or just "normal business"? and then there is the confusion of passengers booking Business class and then once on the plane finding out that the cabin in front is not a First cabin but a Business cabin as well (only slightly better) so why were they not offered this by their TA?

It would have made far more sense to come out with a Business-First product - that seems to work very well on Continental, and on VS with their Upper Class product - then introduce 2 different Business class products on the same plane.
Sorry, but the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.

The more you are trying to convince me, the more the upgraded business class makes sense to me :)

If you want to upgrade your comfort from Business, you go First? - why? why not go half way?
if you want to upgrade your comfort from economy you go business? - it seems like the Premium Economy model works.

What happens with the business traveler who’s company's travel policy allows him/her to travel Business? - nothing changed - there is still the same business class the company would pay for. AFAIK, companies that pay only for economy seats do not allow premium economy where available. The same would probably apply for those who pay business.

"the confusion of passengers booking Business class and then once on the plane finding out that the cabin in front is not a First cabin but a Business cabin as well (only slightly better) so why were they not offered this by their TA? " ? - What happens to the guy that cannot afford paying business who walks into a BA plane only to find that there is a premium economy cabin in prices he could afford that was not offered by his TA?

apirchik ,
I have run this by 20 (yes 20) people I know, who all travel at least once or twice a month and are all Elite members with ELAL, BA, or LH.
Not a single one of them could see the logic here.
The comparison to PE is just the wrong comparison.
The difference between Economy and Business is large enough to justify an in-between product.
There is no way anyone would think there is room say for an in-between product between BA’s Club World and First (what would they offer in a cabin like this???).
But then, if ELAL think there is room for another cabin above Business but not First, then their Business class simply isn’t good enough.

Time will tell, but my guess is it will not work.

the whole idea is just ridiculous. Business is supposed to be pretty nice. Why not just do it as Business and First, that's what they are doing anyways, just changing the names.

I don't think travel managers will fall for that crap, why should they?

Premium economy works as a model since Y is so miserable, paying a bit more for a bit of comfort makes sense. Paying a lot more for a little more comfort and the same service (C+) is stupid.

I hope LY needs a 'complete' restructuring soon so they can get competent management.

You are right about BA as their C seat is a lie flat one but OTOH airlines like CO and DL can fit a real F class as an upgrade to their BF/BE cabin.

Funny you mention LH as their new C product is not 180 degrees lie flat but still very successful. They operate this class on some planes/routes as the premium cabin and on other with an F cabin - depending on where they can sell F and where not. LH is the only airline to operate wide-bodies out of Israel without personal IFE in coach (except LY 767) and still it is the #1 foreign carrier.

Out of the box thinking is not necessarily bad and wrong even if 20 out of 20 say it is. A couple of months ago I attented a conference and was in a session about out of box thinking. The guy who runs themarker.com (and the printed economic section of Haaretz) gave a session and said that before they started the site back in the late 90s 98% of the people said they will never read news on the internet and there is no market for such an online service. Most said he is crazy and will fail. Look where we all are today.

Premium economy works because there are some who don't want to pay for full business class but will pay extra for a 'half way house'. However, what EL AL is doing is to make the 'half way house' between business and first into the only option available. With an airline offering premium economy there is still a business class option available for those who want it.

I think that what EL AL really need is a Premium economy option, rather than a dumbed down first class labelled 'premium business'.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. But, considering the amount of seats currently in C I'm not sure where they would fit this? Cut out some of Y for this T product? If they were to add T but at the same time do away with A would they still be nuts?

AC seems to call their C product Executive and the A product Executive First with what look like seats to die for. It has been suggested here that LY should have gone with Business First instead of Premium Business. Can someone explain how you perceive the difference in these two offerings and contrast with the current First offering?

The more I hear about dumb policies like this the more I may just switch to BA / LY all together...

VS has Y, Premium Y and J
ANA / BA has Y, Premium Y, J and F (on 777 AND 747 A/C)
CO has Y and BF
LH has Y, J, F
NONE of the above carriers has Y, J, and J+

It's a stupid idea. El Al is not an airline which can dedicate specific aircraft to specific routes. El Al's 777 which may be use or this "trial" route may be substituted on JFK or LHR runs at a moment's notice. Other airlines have extensive flights, aircraft and routess and can manage multiple A/C configs. As it is already JFK and EWR flights are sometimes given the 747's without F sans notice (or downgraded to a 767.

On top of it, in my flights, especially on US flights and LHR flights I find F to be quite full. A better choice would be an above the board upgrade of J to a standardized product and reduce F flights altogether (like AF).

People will fly in the new 777, not understand the whole "my J is better than your J concept" and there will be no way for LY to guarantee A/C on a particular route.

My .02c is to remove F on all 777'sand upgrade J to a SQ like product.
The J class product now is sub-par and El Al will have unhappy customers if they are forced to have two aircraft operate with a world-class J+ and the rest be a product long overdue for an upgrade.
Also, change the J/Y 747s to F/J/Y, fly them on JFK, EWR, and other high yield routes.

But how will El Al explain this concept to passengers, who to put it mildly, can be quite rowdy is perplexing to me. As it is, their website didn't exactly sell out the difference between Business and Platinum classes until recently...

yosithezet - That is the policy now, they do not open the F class until there is atleast one paying First Class Pax. NO DOUBLE UPGRADES. I also think the premium business will be a business first product (I hope)

Clubman - I agree with most what you say, though in your comparison to BA adding a J+ inbetween CW and F is not a good comparison because CW is a much better product than LY's Platinum (though I think the service on LY is better and if flying to NY I will probably always prefer flying nonstop).

apirchik - I think your one fundamental mistake is to comapre this regualr business to PE. The reason PE is successful is totaly different with what will make J+ fail or succeed.

FLYaway3x - LY doesnt have any two class (J/Y) 744's anymore.

^ ^ ^

Yes but that's what I mean! Because CW is a better product the Platinum the difference between CW and F is too small for there to be room for an in-between product.
And here is the problem.
LY instead of bringing their Business class product up to the standers of BA etc, so that there isn't such a massive gap between Business and First, they come up with this stupid idea of offering another Business class cabin on the same flight which will be closer to BA standards etc (closer…)

I believe we all agree that the model of J and J+ does not exist anywhere :)

Where did I compare regular business to PE? - I compared Y/PE (as a model of 2 classes with the same service and different seats) to J/J+ (as a model of 2 classes with the same service and different seats). Business and PE have no ground for comparison (although I would take BA PE over Israirs "Business class" at any moment :) ).

Your comparison is not really valid. The difference is that with PE there is still a J option. With J/J+ there is no F option. If I want J I am not forced to take PE. However under EL AL's new scheme, if I want F am am being forced to take J+.