wheelchair in the closet
May 22, 2012, 2:05 pm
#46
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Dimensions of priority space in cabin to store collapsible wheelchair
From the ACAA 14 CFR Part 382 as amended effective May 13, 2009
§382.67 What is the requirement for priority space in the cabin to store passengers’ wheelchairs?
(a) As a carrier, you must ensure that there is a priority space in the cabin of sufficient size to stow at least one typical adult-sized folding, collapsible, or break-down manual passenger wheelchair, the dimensions of which are within a space of 13 inches by 36 inches by 42 inches without having to remove the wheels or otherwise disassemble it. This requirement applies to any aircraft with 100 or more passenger seats; and
(b) This space must be other than the overhead compartments and under-seat spaces routinely used for passengers’ carry-on items.
(c) As a foreign carrier, you must meet the requirement of paragraph (a) of this section for new aircraft ordered after May 13, 2009 or delivered after May 13, 2010. As a U.S. carrier, this requirement applies to you with respect to new aircraft you operate that were ordered after April 5, 1990, or which were delivered after April 5, 1992.
§382.67 What is the requirement for priority space in the cabin to store passengers’ wheelchairs?
(a) As a carrier, you must ensure that there is a priority space in the cabin of sufficient size to stow at least one typical adult-sized folding, collapsible, or break-down manual passenger wheelchair, the dimensions of which are within a space of 13 inches by 36 inches by 42 inches without having to remove the wheels or otherwise disassemble it. This requirement applies to any aircraft with 100 or more passenger seats; and
(b) This space must be other than the overhead compartments and under-seat spaces routinely used for passengers’ carry-on items.
(c) As a foreign carrier, you must meet the requirement of paragraph (a) of this section for new aircraft ordered after May 13, 2009 or delivered after May 13, 2010. As a U.S. carrier, this requirement applies to you with respect to new aircraft you operate that were ordered after April 5, 1990, or which were delivered after April 5, 1992.
May 22, 2012, 4:05 pm
#47
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I have read it multiple times now and just checked again. Here is a quote with some of it bolded:
This paragraph talks about pre-boarding, not about reserving stowage space in advance. It pretty clearly states that to use this stowage area, whether it is a closet or not, can not be reserved since it specifies only during pre-boarding. I see nothing about allowing the airlines to reserve the space in advance. If you have a quote from the law that says otherwise then please post it. The US Airways paragraph you posted earlier says nothing about reserving the space in advance of pre boarding. I've also bolded the phrase "first come, first served" for you.
there won't be any wheelchair races as it will be whichever person gets pre-boarded first. I have been the last to arrive at a gate, where there were many old folks using chairs and waiting to be pre boarded. I was pre-boarded first, since out of all of us, I was the only one who could not get up and walk to my seat. I did not request to be first. The wheelchair assistance crew, along with the airline gate agents decided who goes first.
This paragraph talks about pre-boarding, not about reserving stowage space in advance. It pretty clearly states that to use this stowage area, whether it is a closet or not, can not be reserved since it specifies only during pre-boarding. I see nothing about allowing the airlines to reserve the space in advance. If you have a quote from the law that says otherwise then please post it. The US Airways paragraph you posted earlier says nothing about reserving the space in advance of pre boarding. I've also bolded the phrase "first come, first served" for you.
there won't be any wheelchair races as it will be whichever person gets pre-boarded first. I have been the last to arrive at a gate, where there were many old folks using chairs and waiting to be pre boarded. I was pre-boarded first, since out of all of us, I was the only one who could not get up and walk to my seat. I did not request to be first. The wheelchair assistance crew, along with the airline gate agents decided who goes first.
May 22, 2012, 4:09 pm
#48
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Yes they have to be preboarded. To have time to stow, etc.
It does not say that first preboarded is the one who gets it. You are being very anal. If I reserve on US Air and it is you (I'll ask) that grabs it, I will have them remove it next time instead of checking mine. (ps Virgin also reserves)
End of discussion as you believe you know it all. I would suggest that you check with US Air and if you don't like it, write to the gov and let them tell you!!
It does not say that first preboarded is the one who gets it. You are being very anal. If I reserve on US Air and it is you (I'll ask) that grabs it, I will have them remove it next time instead of checking mine. (ps Virgin also reserves)
End of discussion as you believe you know it all. I would suggest that you check with US Air and if you don't like it, write to the gov and let them tell you!!
May 22, 2012, 7:47 pm
#49
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Yes they have to be preboarded. To have time to stow, etc.
It does not say that first preboarded is the one who gets it. You are being very anal. If I reserve on US Air and it is you (I'll ask) that grabs it, I will have them remove it next time instead of checking mine. (ps Virgin also reserves)
End of discussion as you believe you know it all. I would suggest that you check with US Air and if you don't like it, write to the gov and let them tell you!!
It does not say that first preboarded is the one who gets it. You are being very anal. If I reserve on US Air and it is you (I'll ask) that grabs it, I will have them remove it next time instead of checking mine. (ps Virgin also reserves)
End of discussion as you believe you know it all. I would suggest that you check with US Air and if you don't like it, write to the gov and let them tell you!!
May 23, 2012, 6:03 am
#50
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Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.
You left out part of the rule:
My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.
I will accept your second apology.
Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.
You left out part of the rule:
Carriers must permit one folding wheelchair to be stowed in a cabin closet, or other approved prioriity storage area, if the aircraft has such areas and stowage can be accomplished in accordance with FAA safety regulations. If the passenger using it pre-boards, stowage of the wheelchair takes priority over the carry-on items brought on by other passengers enplaning at the same airport (including passengers in another cabin, such as First Class), but not over items of passengers who boarded at previous stops.
I will accept your second apology.
May 24, 2012, 3:43 am
#51
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Guys, please clarify for me, I have dissasembled plenty of wheelchairs in order to accomodate in a closet. Does this mean that I shouldn't have to remove the wheels or legs to make it fit? I don't want to disregard any ACA rules here, but FAA is my governing authority.
May 24, 2012, 6:03 am
#52
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if it fits in approved space without removing them, no you do not
May 24, 2012, 6:23 am
#53
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DF
Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.
You left out part of the rule:
My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.
I will accept your second apology.
Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.
You left out part of the rule:
My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.
I will accept your second apology.
Last edited by DeafFlyer; May 24, 2012 at 6:34 am
May 24, 2012, 6:31 am
#54
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There are different types of chairs. Folding chairs do not need the wheels removed. There are other kinds that do need the wheels removed. They're usually always a quick release kind of wheel. Those need them removed to fit. I think Katja uses one like that, but I'm not sure. The user usually can remove them themselves, as it is so easy. You don't need tools to "disassemble" them.
May 24, 2012, 5:12 pm
#55
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There are different types of chairs. Folding chairs do not need the wheels removed. There are other kinds that do need the wheels removed. They're usually always a quick release kind of wheel. Those need them removed to fit. I think Katja uses one like that, but I'm not sure. The user usually can remove them themselves, as it is so easy. You don't need tools to "disassemble" them.
Note that the ACAA doesn't say you mustn't do these things. Thank you for helping fit chairs into "approved stowage" areas!
May 30, 2012, 2:26 am
#56
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DF
Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.
You left out part of the rule:
My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.
I will accept your second apology.
Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.
You left out part of the rule:
My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.
I will accept your second apology.
In the original first post in this thread the FA makes sure to point out to Katja that not all flights have closets. As not all flights have closets the rules need to address this and mention these alternative stowage areas so that those who work in cabins without closets can also comply with the rules.
One would have to be very determined to not wish to comply with the spirit of these rules to apply a clause meant for a cabin without a closet to a cabin with a closet.
Being wrong or right surely is a moot point as it must be directly related to what X airline has decided is the designated 'priority storage area' for each of the craft in their fleet.
If you happen to be aware that in the aircraft you are using, unusually, the closet ISN'T the designated 'priority storage area defined in 382.67 here: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....1.4.64.5.24.4
Then you would be right.
But you don't seem to have ever established if that is indeed the case, just that there are sometimes, but not always, alternative storage areas to the aircrafts defined 'priority storage area'. Which is great, as surely this means more room for more chairs up top.
I can't imagine Katja or any other poster here starting a thread to tell us that an FA wouldn't store their chair in the closet but found an alternative area for it in the cabin.
If Katja had boarded and saw that another chair was already in the closet because the aircraft had already picked up pax at another airport I doubt this particular thread would have been started either.
The sorry thing is that anyone who tries to answer your questions and statements is forced into becoming anal and it is rather unkind to then point this out.
I feel richer for having read those responses and would like to thank the regular contributors here.
Last edited by LapLap; May 30, 2012 at 2:32 am
Jun 3, 2012, 1:18 am
#57
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 168
Interestingly, Australia has no rule requiring stowage of a wheelchair in the closet (and I've never known an airline here accede to a request for it, except on flights to the US where it is required); similarly I'm not aware of an equivalent EU rule.
I've always thought this is a fantastic rule, and I would love to see it become universal. I've never had a wheelchair damaged in the hold - but plenty of times I've had them almost left at airports (I've looked out the window and seen the chair sitting outside at the gate after not being loaded etc), and seen them take forever to emerge from oversized baggage.
It's a shame that it takes a law to compel airlines to do this - it really isn't that difficult for them, and makes a big difference to a wheelchair user.
I've never heard of bookings being taken for the closet before, but it seems like a sensible idea.
I've always thought this is a fantastic rule, and I would love to see it become universal. I've never had a wheelchair damaged in the hold - but plenty of times I've had them almost left at airports (I've looked out the window and seen the chair sitting outside at the gate after not being loaded etc), and seen them take forever to emerge from oversized baggage.
It's a shame that it takes a law to compel airlines to do this - it really isn't that difficult for them, and makes a big difference to a wheelchair user.
I've never heard of bookings being taken for the closet before, but it seems like a sensible idea.
Jun 4, 2012, 6:02 am
#58
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Also, the Australian Court ruled ok only two wheelchair passengers per plane
Jun 4, 2012, 7:35 am
#59
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Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.
You left out part of the rule:
My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.
I will accept your second apology.
Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.
You left out part of the rule:
My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.
I will accept your second apology.
There's no first or second apology coming. Whatever do you think I would apologize about? You posted erroneous info and I called you on it. As for the second part above, I never argued that point. What would I apologize for?
Jun 4, 2012, 11:18 am
#60
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Deaf
It would make me happ to educate you.
Here is the policy from US Air
Please note the 24 hour request to be first come, first served. There is no federal law prohibiting this. The law only states first come - not when that first come! It also states closet OR back role. In my experiance, it is usually the back row of first class!
Thus, again it is you who is erroneous (sorry). In regards to the OP, if they used US Air, they were in error!
Manual wheelchairs, canes, crutches and walkers
On aircraft with more than 100 seats, US Airways has room for one typical adult-sided folding, collapsible or break-down manual wheelchair, cane, crutches or walker in the cabin’s priority stowage space, so long as it complies with applicable safety, security and hazardous materials rules.
The priority stowage space will either be a closet or the back row of seats.
US Airways offers in-cabin wheelchair stowage on a first-come, first-served basis.
Please call 800-428-4322/TTY 800-245-2966 24 hours before your flight to document your request for in-cabin wheelchair stowage.
Wheelchairs stowed in the cabin do not count as a carry-on.
Walkers are stowed in the overhead storage compartment, and canes are usually stowed by the passenger at their seat.
If space is not available in the cabin for mobility aids and other assistive devices, or if the items do not meet safety, security and hazardous materials rules, then US Airways can transport the items in the cargo compartment. US Airways will tag your mobility aid or assistive device for special handling, place it in the cargo compartment as you board the aircraft and return the mobility aid or assistive device to you at the destination gate upon arrival or at a connecting airport. US Airways does not charge a checked baggage fee for this type of item.
It would make me happ to educate you.
Here is the policy from US Air
Please note the 24 hour request to be first come, first served. There is no federal law prohibiting this. The law only states first come - not when that first come! It also states closet OR back role. In my experiance, it is usually the back row of first class!
Thus, again it is you who is erroneous (sorry). In regards to the OP, if they used US Air, they were in error!
Manual wheelchairs, canes, crutches and walkers
On aircraft with more than 100 seats, US Airways has room for one typical adult-sided folding, collapsible or break-down manual wheelchair, cane, crutches or walker in the cabin’s priority stowage space, so long as it complies with applicable safety, security and hazardous materials rules.
The priority stowage space will either be a closet or the back row of seats.
US Airways offers in-cabin wheelchair stowage on a first-come, first-served basis.
Please call 800-428-4322/TTY 800-245-2966 24 hours before your flight to document your request for in-cabin wheelchair stowage.
Wheelchairs stowed in the cabin do not count as a carry-on.
Walkers are stowed in the overhead storage compartment, and canes are usually stowed by the passenger at their seat.
If space is not available in the cabin for mobility aids and other assistive devices, or if the items do not meet safety, security and hazardous materials rules, then US Airways can transport the items in the cargo compartment. US Airways will tag your mobility aid or assistive device for special handling, place it in the cargo compartment as you board the aircraft and return the mobility aid or assistive device to you at the destination gate upon arrival or at a connecting airport. US Airways does not charge a checked baggage fee for this type of item.