i wish my standards were higher, because people who both have high standards and know how to (politely) demand perfection (relative to situation) in the first place, and/or compensation after imperfection, are not only treated extremely well, but can save tons of money.

Chris ^^ to you as you for what you have presented so far as it falls inline with what happened when I was working my way through college as a server/bartender/jack of trades. It was some of the best times in my life that i wouldnt trade for anything in the world but there is other sides that i dont care to repeat.

As having working in the service industry in the past for over 5 years behind the bar and on the floor this is more inline with what I tip when i go because i know what goes on behind the scenes and how things work and how long things should take to get done. This is something "regulars", "foodies" and those in or who have worked in the service industry understand and is why we tip the way we do(we take care of one another), its the rest of the amateur diners don't seem to understand and are the ones that complain the most(IE dont punish the server in his tip for the kitchens error because its not his fault and the cook doesnt care because hes paid by the hour, not the table) and are the most needy as a result tip the lowest.

What hasnt been said already is that there is alot that goes into being a very good waiter/server that its not even funny. In that you have to be a multi tasker, know the menu (food, bar and wine) forward and backwards and be able to make reccomendations as well, know the ordering system and how to modify a order that a amateur has put together(ie single plate that the ticket is over a foot long with modifications) and be able to relay it to the kitchen staff, be a very good communicator (with guests, staff and the kitchen) as well as a sharp mind and can remember lots of things at one time as you are taking care of 4 tables or more that are at different stages of eating all at the same time. This is on top of doing side and running floor duties so at any given time you may have 30 or more items your juggling to get or get done at any point. It gets even worse if you get double/triple/quad/quint sat or more at one time. This is why taking care of your server is important because its not a easy job by any stretch and there alot goes on that you dont even see that keeps everything running smoothly without issue.

If you havent work in the industry you have no clue and it shows in your tips. I personally think everyone should work in the service industry atleast once for six months(labor day through spring break) as alittle education goes a long way.

I would love to post some of the stories i have from waiters about campers,freeloaders, and complainers as well as some of the rules for dining but i would probably get erased as im not Omni enabled.

As for Chris explination on tip-outs is correct in that waiters have and it is deducted from the tips we recieve to pay out a number of different folks (hosts, bussers, porters, and bartenders and all of this came out to 5-8% of total sales) which can take a fairly big chunk out of my tips so i end up walking with alot less.


Well thats what the law states but I have yet to find a GM that would do this if the averages came up short. The best you would get is "try harder next time". Good idea in theory but just doesnt happen at all. I have had days that i have made under a $1 a hour because of cheapskates and those who dont tip because they think i get paid "$15 a hour to kiss my butt and pamper me". no joke that was his comment to the regional partner in complaint( the only one that was ever sent in on me as I had nothing but compliments in my file and was scratched off as this was a repeat whiner who was banned from ever coming back after one incident.) and i worked at a 3.5-4 star establishment. Then on the other hand i have had days where i have walked with over a grand for 15 hours of work because we where so busy (slammed) that i ended up working from lunch all the way through closing. The average is only about less then $10 a hour for floor staff or about 20K for the year. Thats alot of work for the money you get in the end and its very hard on the mind and body, this is why alot of service industry professionals work hard but play even harder.

Working behind the bar is completely different as i had a base hourly + tip-out pool share paid into by the servers + tips from my customers but then again the work load is different because im taking care of a bar that had 18 stools plus 8 4 tops(table with 4 seats) and making drinks for the rest of the house and taking togo orders (thats another subject on tipping that could be a thread unto its own) so im going to make a bit more (put it this way I made more bartending a year then I will make as a Paramedic for critical care transport service this year.) but it is alot more work no how you cut it compared to working as a server on the floor.

I think really that everyone should work in the service industry for 6 months so that they will have better idea of how things really go on at restaurant before they pass judgement on how tipping should be done.

JayhawkCO writes:

I am one of those people who really would rather eat my own cooking in my own home and I do so whenever possible. I know what I like, I know how I like it, and am just as happy as a clam feeding myself.

Real life, however, really does require me to eat out, far more often than I would like. There are a few local restaurants where I am comfortable knowing that I will get a really good meal. Most, however, don't much please me. As a result, I usually end up eating only salads in restaurants, and even then it is a struggle to get them served just the way I prefer, and, strangely, it sometimes seems that the more expensive the restaurant, the more difficult it is to get things the way I want them.

Crazily enough, we recently had lunch at a restaurant in the airport at PDX and my meal, ordered to my very picky tastes, was absolutely perfect the first time around. I was amazed. That waitress got a great tip.

Fortunately for both me and the wait staff, I am rarely the one paying the bill so I usually have no idea how much we tip.

FWIW, I did once serve my time as a waitress at Disneyland. We worked as hard as I have ever worked in my life, were held to unbelievably high standards, and made a ton of money. Even the shade of our lipstick had to be regulation. We had people waiting in line for tables from the time we opened until the time we closed and there was little or no time for rest. We were required to make eye contact with every table in our station, every time we passed them, even if both arms were loaded with trays. That is when I learned to wink. ;) It is amazing how much people appreciate a wait person making eye-contact and mouthing "Are you OK?" even when they obviously can't really do anything about it at the moment.

That is my standard of service and one I rarely see in today's world, outside of very tony restaurants in Europe and a few owner operated ethnic restaurants in the USA.

I hate it when tips are added to the bill and, when they are, that is all they get.

If the service is horrible, I have no problem removing the "automatic tip". I can remember one instance where the service was totally dreadful, the food just awful and, to top it off, the waitress spilled an entire tray of drinks on us and our table. Not only did they charge us for the drinks she spilled, but they also added an 18% automatic tip. EEK! I removed the charge for the drinks we received in our laps, removed the service charge and asked for the manager. He very unhappily acquiesced and we have never been, nor will be back to that restaurant. Actually they have since gone out of business, Praise the Lord.

Good service deserves a good tip. Great service deserves a great tip. Mediocre service deserves a mediocre tip. Poor service deserves nothing, IMHO.

wow. they're really cheating. haven't experienced this though. but a couple of times, i've experienced that some restaurants put additional things that you didn't order in the check. so if you don't read it, you could pay for what they added. :mad:

In my experience, the odds of this happening increase steeply if:

a) you dine in a touristy location
b) you are a foreigner

And, yes, it is quite common.

Cheers,
T.

I am really fascinated by your perspective, Chris. So you're saying that waiters/waitresses would be incapable of providing good service when guaranteed a 20% tip that's built into the pricing? So then you agree that automatically adding mandatory tips for parties of 6 or more at your restaurant should be eliminated? And that everyone else in the world who has a job that does not includes tips can be excused for turning in a crappy performance?

I have great empathy for waiters/waitresses because it can be a really hard job and because without tips most of them do not make a decent wage. But if you were to eliminate the whole notion of tipping and pay them a real wage commensurate with the skill level and training required for the job, then I think it's only reasonable to expect nothing less than a professional, enthusiastic performance each and every time. Anything else is just a version of "entitlement" thinking, which I'm afraid has crept into much of your reasoning on this thread.

We seem to have threads like this one fairly constantly on the go, so let me add a few points.

1. It is a complete misnomer to call this the "hospitality industry". Hospitality ? Huh !

2. I am not impressed by those from the industry who, as some above, feel they have to micro-analyse the steps of their job to make it sound arduous, eg "The wine waiter has to take the order, walk to the wine rack, take the bottle out, carry it to the table, show the bottle, ensure the label is the right way round, put in the corkscrew, turn the corkscrew round ....." etc. You know the stuff.

3. References to "the best service of your life" is something which, by definition, only occurs once in your lifetime, therefore so unlikely that it cannot be taken as a general rule.

4. A recent couple of weeks in the US, which probably led to some 30 or so meals in restaurants, at a range of places, and did not show one single example of "great" service. It seems over time that waiting staff try to get round more and more tables (providing less and less service to each) to maximise their 15% opportunities. It used to be that US service standards were way ahead of us here iin the UK, I remember. Not any more.

5. The number of people who seem to have their hands in the pot for the tips goes ever upwards. Just about everyone in the restaurant, hosts, kitchen, etc, now expects a share, and then you have the waiting staff who tell you that their money from serving goes to their "family of 8 in Latin America, and is putting my younger brother through college .....". Before long half the world will expect to be supported by our tips.

6. There are some places in the US, particularly tourist-oriented resorts, where adding gratuities is standard (people who live in Iowa never get to experience this). Invariably the credit card slip comes with the tip line still open. The line on the menu that describes this policy is invariably on the back, in the smallest font used on the menu.

I would think the level of service would remain the same for the average server as that is the level of tips they are used to. Very good servers might look elsewhere as they are used to there tips being higher then that.

One thing that management at all establishments will cut bad servers who arent up to the standard or those that get complaints (repeated complaints not the fluke complaints) as one bad dining experience will be spread like wildfire but.

It comes down to that If you dont like the policy which btw is usually in the menu so its not a surprise unless you just didn't read the menu. let your server know ahead of time and they can get a manager to not invoke it or remove it, but if you do take care of your server for reasons stated above, as cheapos are remembered and broadcast to the rest of the staff and there friends in the industry to watch out for you the next time you come in.

I chose Ducca because San Francisco Chronicle Magazine listed it as "one of ten best (restaurants) of 2007"!

$9/$55 = 16.36%

$55/$320 = 17.19%

The side note would be even more interesting if it were true!

Another side note: it appears the 18% auto-gratuity is on the pre-tax amount, not the after-tax amount. I agree with this methodology of calculating the tip. After-tax tipping is yet another step in the upward spiral of tip inflation. I suspect all servers who buy-in to this method are voting for Huckabee and the FairTax (30% national sales tax)!

I am not an expert in this, but I would think the basis is the average hourly wage per pay period comes out to minimum wage, so daily deviations don't necessarily matter. If a server was making less than the minimum wage and the manager is aware of this, I think that employee should reflect on whether this job is worth keeping and whether they should take the initiative and contact their Department of Labor, who would certainly be interested in a business violating the minimum wage law.

I've heard this argument from servers many times in various places where the tipping debate comes up. The suggestion that an inclusive service charge would decrease service seems ludicrous when you consider that the best service most people I know have received is at restaurants in countries where there is a service charge. These places where a "tip" is considered rounding up the bill or adding 10% for great service and people seem surprised and appreciative for the extra amount, or in some places run after you and try to return it! :p

Sorry-I was not clear on this.These are incidental tips-not restaurant tips.
(i.e. the boy who brings the groceries to the car,floral deliveries,dry cleaning runners-that sort of thing)

So basically, people who have worked in restaurants/ bars feel like we should be tipping a lot, and the rest say no. I guess that is to be expected.

Myself, I always tip 15%, even when the service is horrible (I am afraid to leave less; I am such a wuss :p). Average to good service gets somewhere around 18-20%. Great service gets 20-25%.

That being said... If tomorrow I adopt a kid, is my company obliged to pay me more because I now have a whole new set of costs? No -- I accepted my position for a set salary, and it is not the company's problem what happens to it once they pay me.

Waiters know before they take the job that they will be getting paid $2ish + tips, and that they will be tipping out. 15% (pre-tax) is widely-regarded as the standard tip amount in the US. So, if a person takes the job knowing all of this, then s/he should not complain about the minimum wage and suggest that restaurant patrons need to top-off their salaries.

The way I see it... in an average restaurant, my waiter/ waitress will spend about ~15 minutes over the course of an hour taking care of me. Since I usually see a waiter/ waitress in charge of several tables at once, I think this estimate of time is reasonable. It is a hard job, I won't deny it, but if it is the kind of job that a 16yo without a HS education can do, then it should be a minimum wage job, $6/ hr, $4 above the wage paid. My share of the "top-off" during the course of my meal should then be $1.

Even if I consider all the other people involved in my dining experience (host/ hostess, chef, bartender, busperson, etc), none of these services overlap, so at most, in a 60-minute meal, 60 minutes of effort has gone into it (and since the bulk of the time, I am sitting at my table with no one talking to me, I assume much less). So $4 should be sufficient to bring everyone up to minimum wage (for my share of their time).

Like I said, I generally tip well (per normal person standards, not I-work-in-a-restaurant standards). I know some people don't tip well, or at all, and I feel bad about that. But I get screwed at work, too; that's just life.

I assume that if the good tippers didn't more than compensate for the bad ones, that no one would be a waiter/ waitress.

Here's how I look at this (sorry I've been away from the thread for a couple days. Working those doubles and making those tips :)) Look at service on the airlines. Almost every thread that I read on FT is about how terrible of service they've been receiving lately. I've gotten to the point where I expect pretty much nothing except a drink order taken. These people don't (often) receive tips and hence they don't have any real incentive to not only go above and beyond, but even maintain the absolutely BASIC level of service -- civility. They're not making anything more for trying harder, and they're not getting fired for a bad job either. Like has been happening for a long time, employers pay their employees just enough to not make them quit, and employees work just hard enough not to get fired.

I think if they restaurants completely eliminated tipping, and increased the price of food and beverage to compensate for their additional labor costs, service in restaurants would eventually degenerate to the point that we're currently seeing on the airlines. Of course you're still going to have the employees who do a superb job, but you're also going to increase the percentage of those who, quite frankly, don't give a damn.

I think if we got to choose how much we paid, within reason, for our flights given what level of service we received, and a percentage of that money went directly to the flight attendants, gate agents, etc., you might see a few more smiles next time you have to go out of town on a business trip. Even during ir-opps you might actually get someone who sees you as a person instead of another body waiting in line.

To get back to the original topic a bit, my restaurant recently switched which tables "constitute" a section, and since the better servers in the restaurant get to pick which section they would like, I happened to choose one of the larger sections that will not have any parties of six or more. So, no more auto-gratuities for me. I couldn't afford it anymore. :D

Chris