Consolidated "Martini" thread
Dec 21, 2006 | 9:41 pm
#31
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Central Texas
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Potato vodkas of old were oily (which is why 007 wanted it shaken and not stirred). The resurgence of the vodka you are referring to in the 60's was due to the refining of vodka switching over to grains instead of potatos, and not due to Fleming, or The Rat Pack.
M8
M8
While I would hardly challenge your experience, please name one US distilled/bottled Vodka from the 1950s which was made with potatoes. From "Smirnoff" on down the ladder, US vodkas from the end of Prohibition to relatively recent years were "Grain" distillates, far cheaper in the US than potato alcohol, not even a good choice for moonshiners (although I've drunk sweet potato alky).
Dec 22, 2006 | 9:49 am
#32
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Yes, that is the intended purpose. Make dismal food seem to taste better (by not tasting at all). As the quality of cuisine improved in the US, the martini disappeared from the dining scene for the most part. Now it is making a comeback (though often as cocktails separate from dinner, or as desert). It generally isn't combined with food except in steakhouses with the 40 oz. steak and 12 inch cigar menu.
A real "steakhouse" martini followed by the massive steak and cigar is definately on my "to do" list once I get our American business going. Any Chicago area recs for such a combination?
Dec 22, 2006 | 10:05 am
#33
Join Date: Jun 2006
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The Martini was created by the Martini and Rossi company as a vehicle for their dry vermouth. The recipe is 2 to 1, gin to vermouth. The Smirnoff company paid the producers of the Bond films to replace the gin with Smirnoff in the movies, around 1962 or so, and this led to the vodka martini's popularity. Cheers to all!
Dec 22, 2006 | 10:21 am
#34
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: IAH
Posts: 2,674
While I would hardly challenge your experience, please name one US distilled/bottled Vodka from the 1950s which was made with potatoes. From "Smirnoff" on down the ladder, US vodkas from the end of Prohibition to relatively recent years were "Grain" distillates, far cheaper in the US than potato alcohol, not even a good choice for moonshiners (although I've drunk sweet potato alky).
From http://cocktailtimes.com/dictionary/history_vodka.shtml
In the 1930s one such exile emigrated from Russia via France to the United States briningg with him the formula to one of the leading Russian makes of vodka. Through his dealings with another Russian emigre the first vodka distillery in the U.S. was set up in the 1930s. Although not particularly successful at first, this enterprise was sold on again to an entrepreneur who eventually made a hit in the 1950s with a vodka-based cocktail - the Moscow Mule.
Vodka did not see a great boom in popularity in the West until the 1960s and 1970s when many more brands were launched in the USA and the UK. The timing coincided with the cultural revolution in these countries - the 'swinging 60s.' With a more affluent younger generation and a generally more relaxed lifestyle and the emphasis on adventure and experimentation - vodka's mixability led to its huge and ever rising popularity. Vodka cocktails are almost as numerous as those of gin and are seen in the same exclusive circles and stylish bars the world over.
Vodka did not see a great boom in popularity in the West until the 1960s and 1970s when many more brands were launched in the USA and the UK. The timing coincided with the cultural revolution in these countries - the 'swinging 60s.' With a more affluent younger generation and a generally more relaxed lifestyle and the emphasis on adventure and experimentation - vodka's mixability led to its huge and ever rising popularity. Vodka cocktails are almost as numerous as those of gin and are seen in the same exclusive circles and stylish bars the world over.
Note the lack of reference to Vodka. However, I still say that vodka has been in the mix since the very beginning. It is an either/or thing with gin vs. vodka, and not that the vodka was added much later as some fashion statement.
And of course, none of the links above are in the scholarly researched category.
Cheers,
M8
Dec 22, 2006 | 4:52 pm
#35
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: An island in the Pacific
Posts: 2,651
I think Ian Fleming (James Bond) liked to order a Vesper Martini, named after a female character in the novel Casino Royale.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesper_(cocktail)
Made with Lillet, rather than vermouth, and with a mix of vodka and gin.
The Vesper Martini
3 oz Gin
1 oz Vodka
0.5 oz Lillet Blanc
Shake (or stir) with ice and strain into a wine glass or large martini glass. Garnish with a lemon twist.
Here's an extract from the novel...
http://www.esquire.com/features/arti..._Drinking.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesper_(cocktail)
Made with Lillet, rather than vermouth, and with a mix of vodka and gin.
The Vesper Martini
3 oz Gin
1 oz Vodka
0.5 oz Lillet Blanc
Shake (or stir) with ice and strain into a wine glass or large martini glass. Garnish with a lemon twist.
Here's an extract from the novel...
http://www.esquire.com/features/arti..._Drinking.html
Dec 22, 2006 | 5:47 pm
#37
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London
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Posts: 2,600
Ok drinking is something I happen to know a little about, and the quest for the perfect Martini led me (with financial wager involved) on a quest of the finest establishments of london, all accused of having the best.
First, anything with vodka in it, does not have Martini in its name. Period. A martini that substitutes Gin with Vodka, is NOT a Vodka Martini, it is a Vodkatini.
Now, in days gone by the American Bar at the Savoy (the birthplace of the Martini) used to uses a womans vaporiser to waft the Vermouth over the top of the glass of Gin. Some variations have the bartender swilling his mouth out with Vermouth, then whispering the word 'vermouth' over the gin.
Now as for the assembly of the drinks, since the original used stirred I feel we should to, whilst I appreciate the preservation of strength, it shouldnt be too much of an issue if you are using chilled spirits anyway, so do it.
It is NEVER shaken as it bruises the spirits and alters the flavour, shaking is only ever used with drinks that require intense mixing, such as ones containing egg white, and is one of the most overused bar flourishes around.
Finally on the Bond note. Flemming intended Bonds quirks in "Martini" consumption to be a wry smile at the already well established Martini snobs, and therefore should be totally discounted.
Now the Gin.
I saw some mention of 'Botanicals' earlier, good. Gin is given its flavour with a variety of ingredients, some use dried ingredients, and some use fresh ingredients, these are the botanicals. Gins that use fresh ones (most use dried) tend to have a slightly more citrus tang to them then the dried ones. For a good gin that uses fresh try Tanqueray 10. Bombay Sapphire is widely used, and very good it is too.
The glass should be the temperature of the spirit, not hard, keep it in the same freezer.
Now the vermouth, how many of you have had a barman ask you if you've eaten or not? If you have you are in the presence of someone that truly knows whats what. If you are drinking on an empty stomach there should be a tiny touch more vermouth then if its a post dinner drink, regardless don't get too heavy with it.
Finally the garnish, well the main one to mention is how to handle the lemon peel. Do you want it? do you want it in the glass, squeezed over the top of the glass so the oil floats over the surface of the drink? Or bruised and wiped over the rim. But generally please, a touch of class, just one little olive on a plain wooden toothpick.
Oh, and where is the perfect Martini in London? i feel unable to say, I'm sure the last thing they'd want is scores of 'ghastly Americans' in, well, their American bar....
First, anything with vodka in it, does not have Martini in its name. Period. A martini that substitutes Gin with Vodka, is NOT a Vodka Martini, it is a Vodkatini.
Now, in days gone by the American Bar at the Savoy (the birthplace of the Martini) used to uses a womans vaporiser to waft the Vermouth over the top of the glass of Gin. Some variations have the bartender swilling his mouth out with Vermouth, then whispering the word 'vermouth' over the gin.
Now as for the assembly of the drinks, since the original used stirred I feel we should to, whilst I appreciate the preservation of strength, it shouldnt be too much of an issue if you are using chilled spirits anyway, so do it.
It is NEVER shaken as it bruises the spirits and alters the flavour, shaking is only ever used with drinks that require intense mixing, such as ones containing egg white, and is one of the most overused bar flourishes around.
Finally on the Bond note. Flemming intended Bonds quirks in "Martini" consumption to be a wry smile at the already well established Martini snobs, and therefore should be totally discounted.
Now the Gin.
I saw some mention of 'Botanicals' earlier, good. Gin is given its flavour with a variety of ingredients, some use dried ingredients, and some use fresh ingredients, these are the botanicals. Gins that use fresh ones (most use dried) tend to have a slightly more citrus tang to them then the dried ones. For a good gin that uses fresh try Tanqueray 10. Bombay Sapphire is widely used, and very good it is too.
The glass should be the temperature of the spirit, not hard, keep it in the same freezer.
Now the vermouth, how many of you have had a barman ask you if you've eaten or not? If you have you are in the presence of someone that truly knows whats what. If you are drinking on an empty stomach there should be a tiny touch more vermouth then if its a post dinner drink, regardless don't get too heavy with it.
Finally the garnish, well the main one to mention is how to handle the lemon peel. Do you want it? do you want it in the glass, squeezed over the top of the glass so the oil floats over the surface of the drink? Or bruised and wiped over the rim. But generally please, a touch of class, just one little olive on a plain wooden toothpick.
Oh, and where is the perfect Martini in London? i feel unable to say, I'm sure the last thing they'd want is scores of 'ghastly Americans' in, well, their American bar....
Dec 22, 2006 | 7:38 pm
#38
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: IAH
Posts: 2,674
aceman,
Nice post. However I call nonsense on (1) the Fleming psychoanalysis, (2) the Vodkatini thing, and finally (3) the bruising lore.
However, that being said, I hope you enjoy whatever you are drinking.
Next time I pass thru London on my way to Edinburgh, however, I will give you the opportunity to prove your assertions to me, in person, by purchasing the referenced cocktails for me to imbibe. Most cordial of you!
M8
Nice post. However I call nonsense on (1) the Fleming psychoanalysis, (2) the Vodkatini thing, and finally (3) the bruising lore.
However, that being said, I hope you enjoy whatever you are drinking.
Next time I pass thru London on my way to Edinburgh, however, I will give you the opportunity to prove your assertions to me, in person, by purchasing the referenced cocktails for me to imbibe. Most cordial of you!
M8
Dec 23, 2006 | 10:04 am
#39
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: An island in the Pacific
Posts: 2,651
Shaken vs Stirred?
Heehee, I found a cute little tidbit on shaken vs. stirred martinis at The Straight Dope:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmartini.html
I think we need a few FT volunteers to try this and a few other variations, just for scientific purposes. 
It was suggested by some that even an experienced martini drinker could not tell the difference between a stirred martini and a shaken one.
It's exactly that kind of insistence on the facts that made the Straight Dope what it is today. So in the interests of science and in the best Cecilian tradition, SDSTAFF Gaudere, Gaudere's brother and I repaired to the King Cole Room at New York's St. Regis hotel, a global center of martinidom if there ever was one, to conduct a blind taste test. There, we managed to convince Kwaku the bartender to make one proper, stirred martini and one shaken one (but made from gin, not vodka), all from the same mix. We then each closed our eyes and drank. The results were about as one would expect: martinis all over the bar and an angry bartender. But the experimental outcome was stunning: each and every one of us was able to distinguish the shaken martini from the stirred one. I pegged the stirred one even before tasting the other one.
It's exactly that kind of insistence on the facts that made the Straight Dope what it is today. So in the interests of science and in the best Cecilian tradition, SDSTAFF Gaudere, Gaudere's brother and I repaired to the King Cole Room at New York's St. Regis hotel, a global center of martinidom if there ever was one, to conduct a blind taste test. There, we managed to convince Kwaku the bartender to make one proper, stirred martini and one shaken one (but made from gin, not vodka), all from the same mix. We then each closed our eyes and drank. The results were about as one would expect: martinis all over the bar and an angry bartender. But the experimental outcome was stunning: each and every one of us was able to distinguish the shaken martini from the stirred one. I pegged the stirred one even before tasting the other one.
I think we need a few FT volunteers to try this and a few other variations, just for scientific purposes.
Dec 23, 2006 | 3:27 pm
#40
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: IAH
Posts: 2,674
That straightdope writer must have been straight on dope. Nonsense! Poppycock! Same for the Fleming psychoanalysis re Bond. What would Bond know about martinis? He's a mere fictional civil servant who regularly gets beat up, gets fooled by wily women like Vesper, and in the Moonraker novel doesn't even get the girl, any girl! 
I, a true and living being, shall prove the true case of the matter on shaken vs. stirred this New Year's Eve and report my unquestionable testimonial here on 1 January
M8
I, a true and living being, shall prove the true case of the matter on shaken vs. stirred this New Year's Eve and report my unquestionable testimonial here on 1 January
M8
Dec 23, 2006 | 5:40 pm
#41
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Portland OR Double Emerald (QF and AA), DL PM/MM, Starwood Plat
Posts: 19,593
Shaking gin is a poor substitute for not having gin at the right temperature (cold enough). It is emergency CPR to resuscitate a dead martini. Much of the flavour of gin is the result of oxygen content (dissolved oxygen in the gin). Keeping it in the freezer does this naturally. Shaking with ice also does it, however there is also a "metallic" aftertaste sometimes, so shaking does alter other flavours and isn't the preferred method. At least this has been my life experience, though I've never done a survey about it. The King Cole Room does count as a bastion of martini lore in NYC, even if they didn't invent it.
Dec 23, 2006 | 6:07 pm
#42
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: IAH
Posts: 2,674
...Much of the flavour of gin is the result of oxygen content (dissolved oxygen in the gin). Keeping it in the freezer does this naturally. Shaking with ice also does it, however there is also a "metallic" aftertaste sometimes, so shaking does alter other flavours and isn't the preferred method...
M8
Dec 23, 2006 | 6:44 pm
#43
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: An island in the Pacific
Posts: 2,651
And I'll post some hangover cures.
(Which I will probably need for myself, as well....)Even better, what if we organized a Martini-Do where we could do taste-tests of several gin OR vodka brands, and some blind taste-tests?
I think that would be a LOT of fun!
We could have the gin-drinkers on one side and the vodka people on the other... but wait, what about those of us who are actually willing to do both (a la Fleming) and COMBINE the two? Would we have to be relegated to some bi-alcoholic alcove????
And what about the abominations mixed with sweet liqueurs and fruit juices that masquerade as -tini's ??? (Someone once said they were sugary imposters squatting in a martini glass, I believe....) Would we even let the folks who drink THOSE in the door????
Dec 23, 2006 | 6:50 pm
#44
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Portland OR Double Emerald (QF and AA), DL PM/MM, Starwood Plat
Posts: 19,593
You don't have a choice in Tucson.
Dec 23, 2006 | 7:05 pm
#45
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: An island in the Pacific
Posts: 2,651
Hahaha!
Well, I don't actually live here, but I figured I was here for just long enough to put it in my profile. But I actually like the place, and have learned a few things about tequila and cacti.
So, maybe I should just stick to talking about margaritas?
Well, I don't actually live here, but I figured I was here for just long enough to put it in my profile. But I actually like the place, and have learned a few things about tequila and cacti.
So, maybe I should just stick to talking about margaritas?