The post (and other responses) were in response to this comment and similar follow up comments:

The premise from that post is that tipping equates to 'good service', but that just isn't the case. In the example given, a similar outcome may have been the result, regardless of whether or not the server was tipped.

Tipping does not equate to better service. Ending the tipping culture (the premise of this thread) does not mean that there will be a decline in service.

The post (and other responses) were in response to this comment and similar follow up comments:

The premise from that post is that tipping equates to 'good service', but that just isn't the case. In the example given, a similar outcome may have been the result, regardless of whether or not the server was tipped.

Tipping does not equate to better service. Ending the tipping culture (the premise of this thread) does not mean that there will be a decline in service.

Regardless of when I was working for the Chef of the Year or at a Bavarian banquet setting, if the meal was improperly prepared it was replaced. And there are many, many times as a veg that I order 'off the menu' and have something special created for me, at restaurants of varying types around the world.

The bottom line is that tipping should be a reward for something special. That is how it started off in the US and other countries. As soon as it becomes something that the staff (and their employers) see as an entitlement, it ceases to serve its original purpose and becomes a hassle and a burden.

This.

I'm just back from lunch at a place I go to regularly, maybe twice a week. The waitress who served me knows me, I know her, we don't know each others' names but if we see each other out of the restaurant, we smile and say hello to each other.

I always drink the same thing, but my food order varies. She always asks me "the usual?" and brings me my drink, then takes my meal order. She knows as if by telepathy when it's time for my second drink, so she walks past, looks at me and I nod.

Maybe one visit out of three, only one drink will appear on my bill when I've taken two.

I don't tip, nobody does in that place, and if I left any change they would probably chase me down the street because of my faux pas.

I enjoy going there, she clearly enjoys serving me and I'm happy knowing that she's paid a fair wage, and by taking my business there she's assured of her job.

So, when people try to tell me that you can't get the service you like in "countries like mine", I'm happy to smirk knowingly that they are wrong, and likely have rarely strayed far from the village that gave birth to them.

Pay a little extra for the food, with O Care the share will be there, it will be passed on...

Can you imagine working for 2 bucks an hour and relying on a stiff to tip...

But then the owner does get away paying less than minimum wage...

Puh-leeeeeeze, can we put this rumor to rest!

Are there places that pay $2 per hour? Yes
Are there places where the waiters ans watresses PAY the owner to work? Yes

But, how much are your servers making? It's based on menu price AND volume. So, it's not just fine dining. Servers at bars and places like IHOP can make insane money too.

I worked at an up-scale place. My average tip was $20 (sometimes zero, sometime $80).
Set menu. No surprises. Nothing difficult.
I had 6 tables, 4-5 seatings per day (sometimes a tour before, or after, or both before and after).
Before sharing with my team members, I would pull in an average of $480-600, not including the tours. After sharing, I would make no less than$300, and up to $600 per day. Tours could add another $100 per day, easily.

You realize that this was $6,000 - $12,000 per month? I also made my wages $14 per hour, medical, dental, and pension....

During another period, I worked in the desert bar. My average tip was $2 - 3. From 6pm - 2am, with 12 tables, I could easily rotate tables all night. Cocktails, deserts and coffee, before dinner, before bed.... easily pulling in $200 -300 per shift. Again, another $4000-7000 per month.

Should we now look at that IHOP waiter? the fine dining server?

The money is insane. If people knew, they would support a new system. But the facade of guilt and pity continue.

I'd be glad to make $2 an hour to have that kind of money back in my life!

Really? Do you eat Chateaubriand for breakfast? The places you seem to be talking about sound a lot more like chain restaurants than anything else. I travel all over this country pretty much every week and short of the the 2-3 times I've eaten at an Applebees, I've never had overly attentive service.

That's a load of crap. I've gotten better service in places where tipping is part of the culture. The staff bust their .... You get that drink replaced or the next bottle without having to chase people down. We both have a vested interest in me spending as much as possible. That's not the case when someone doesn't have that variable compensation to go along with things.

I think you're taking one specific example and using it against an absolute statement. I haven't read anyone here saying that it defies the law of physics to ever get good service at a restaurant in a country with a non-tipping culture. What people are saying is that you get better service in countries with tipping cultures. People want your bill to be bigger and they want you to be happy.

When I worked in the industry, I'd track my tip percentage, think of things I could do better and reflect on the tables. I'd always want everyone happy and eating and drinking the best things. I wanted that big tip at the end. It's a huge motivation. Much like how people in many industries get performance based bonuses. Companies give them as a way to incent behavior.

In the US, it is taken to the extreme, mostly due to the government tracking check totals and charging people income tax automatically. That said, your meal wouldn't be any less expensive if the restaurants were paying them more hourly wages in place of the tips.

In terms of the overall subject of the thread, thankfully, none of you can end it. People like me will benefit from it.

How often do you eat at places where tipping is not the norm? You are debating with people who eat several times a week at such places, and who have a very wide frame of reference. (And I worked in the US for years and am still there for much of the year, so have a varied experience with tipped servers as well as non-tipped servers)

Your example of 'chasing people down' reflects a difference in service style. In many places a meal isn't meant to be quick in and out and one shouldn't feel pushed, hence there is a pause between courses etc. (Yes, I realise that we were warned not to discuss culture, but using that as a validation that non-tipped servers provide 'poor' service when one doesn't seemingly understand that difference in service styles impacts your argument) Your argument would mean that outside of the US, there are no restaurants which provide excellent service and experiences, which simply isn't true.

For the record, I went to my favourite 'fast/slow food' Asian place in Germany on the weekend, where everything is prepared to order, in a few minutes time, and requested a number 32 with several variations. They as usual didn't find anything unusual about ordering far off the menu. And nobody received a tip from me, as is usual there.

I vaguely recall that more than two decades ago as a lowly commis I made about 6DM/hour. That didn't include the non-monetory compensation such as the phenomenal training and being able to quote that experience on my CV. I considered myself very well compensated for that very junior role.

No, but it would be a healthier choice than French (sic) toast.

I don't eat at chain restaurants, so I couldn't comment on the experience. Never heard of an Applebees, never mind eaten at one.

Not in the least, it's pretty common experience anywhere I could consider myself to be a regular. (with the exception of the regular freebies, that's just a nice thing from the particular place that I referred to.)

Not where I live, I'm happy to say.

(shrug) You're welcome to it, just don't fool yourself that it's the only way to receive decent service. It's not, as 97% of the planet's population would attest, and whatever benefit "people like you" imagine they receive, you're welcome to it.

I don't have time to translate it right now, but this is an interesting article about the role of Commis de Rang. http://www.abendblatt.de/wirtschaft/...s-de-Rang.html

What I think that is missing from this discussion is that a server is considered a career position, with significant training. After 2,5 to 3 years of apprenticeship, and following final exams one spends 1 to 2 years as a Commis before progressing. That isn't unsual whether one is serving in a high end hotel or a mid-range restaurant. I don't know if the local Applebee's server has similar training (and BadgerBoi, I have eaten at an Applebees - as well as a WaffleHouse! - and you aren't missing much, in my opinion) There are some skilled servers posting on this thread and on FT in general, but I don't think that we are always discussing comparable roles here.

It's a professional career, and tips are not expected, just as one doesn't tip other professional positions.

I agree with sean the pilot!

i dont have a problem with tipping per se - but what i DO have a problem with is the percentage of the bill that I seem to be expected to tip in places like the US

I posted a while back about eating in an upmarket hotel restaurant in Keystone CO. The bill for the 3 of us (including taxes) was well over $500 and my husband added $100 as a tip - and our server actually looked disappointed with that! The time he spent interacting with us meant that we were tipping him $5 or more per minute.

Whilst eating - we noticed that he was waiting on 6 tables, most with parties bigger than ours - and the turnover in the restaurant was such that each table was probably used at least twice if not 3 times each night (that was a weekday evening in the summer). Assuming he got $100 from each group - that meant he was pocketing at least $1200 - $1800 each night. Multiply that by 5 for a weeks worth of tips - that is a minimum of $6000 a week (just in tips!) and that translates to nearly $290,000.

Is a server honestly worth that much? I'm not sure what nurses, and teachers earn in the US, but lets face it a server is not usually the most qualified person, so why is it their right to earn quite so much when those who teach children or nurse the sick probably get paid a lot less than that.

Granted these figures applied to someone working in an expensive restaurant, but is the service provided by that waiter so much better than that provided in a Hardees or IHOP, where the servers tip is based on a much lower bill?

Wouldn't it be fairer for all servers to be given a mandatory tip of a few dollars a head - with anything more being at the diners discretion?

I admit I am from the UK where a lot of restaurants add Service Charges (cover charges seem to be vanishing these days) in lieu of tips and these are 10-12.5% and up to 15% for large parties.

Being expected to tip a quarter of the value of my bill certainly makes me think twice before eating out in the US

Why are you citing your experiences but refusing to name the countries? I asked you about which countries you are referring to on the previous page, and you didn't respond. Now you are making the same vague claim again.

I actually see it as a bonus that my waiter is not trying to make me spend as much as possible. YMMV.

They don't make $2/hour. If tips make up at least 30% of their income, employers can pay employees $2.13/hour, but their tips MUST push that amount up to at least $7.25/hour, which is minimum wage. If they don't earn enough in tips to make $7.25/hour, then the employer MUST make up the difference.

A friend of ours used to be a bartender at Chili's. A few years ago, he said that between what he had to claim in tips (credit card tips, etc.), he earned $56,000 in a year. That's just with what he had to claim in tips.

Tipping 10% on the bill is pretty standard in restaurants in Argentina and in my experience surly distant service is too. I always assume it just goes with a good Malbec and perfectly cooked steak and was my expected contribution to the waiter's psychoanalysis bill. Doesn't seem to support any universal law that where tipping is de rigueur good service is too.