there is one seemingly promising aspect that no one has mentioned thus far: the $1800-2000 paid J trips to Europe typically offered two or three times per year. Basically, 2 or 3 of those will get you gold if combined with any sort of consistent domestic flying.

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Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
~ConcordeBoy

Try the Unofficial Continental Dictionary

Posted by Tolarian Wind:"With the Skymiles ReDo it appears that there is no longer an incentive to be loyal to any airline. I will use my PM benefits until they expire ......
I am not defecting to anyone, nor seeking comps in other airlines programs. I will simply choose the best flights for my needs on any particular trip and from '04 forward, sit in the back."

I agree with TW. I believe that I will go back to the old days of choosing the best flights for my needs instead of doing whatever I can, irrespective of the inconvenience, to fly DL. This week I had a situation arise in which I had to make a last minute reservation to MSP and bring a family member with me. Finally had an opportunity to use a NAMU for him and was pleased to effortlessly confirm immediate 800 upgrade segs for myself. I have already qualified for PM 2003. It would have been much much easier to fly NW non-stop to MSP, instead of connecting through CVG outbound and SLC on the return. Perhaps, I will now be giving more consideration to convenience and less consideration to loyalty and status.

I've always fancied myself a strong debater, but I'll have a hard time convincing anyone (certainly myself included) that there is much good in these changes. A few, like hfly, will fare better in the long run. Certainly those who flew in the old days and have 4M in their MM qualifying account are in good shape... but overall, for 95%+ of us, the news is downright bad. Of course, there are some in this camp who enjoy the masochism, but jimpop is a rare breed indeed.

More thoughts later... need more time to digest.

To answer your other question, it seems that free CRC remains.

ROTFLMAO

jeffrey, I love your new "call sign."

Thanks Andy. Actually, I think we all will be able to be even more creative before this is all over.

OK, a couple of thoughts.

I expect to see many more empty seats in F domestically (or more non-revs). Even though we can now upgrade LUT, do the math. If I earn a measly 4 500-MSU for flying 10K, then I need to fly 10K just to upgrade one BOS-ATL RT. I need to fly 30K to upgrade BOS-LAX RT! (requires 6 each way!)

Oh, and thanks DL, for generously allowing me to upgrade a companion with my MSUs! So now if I have a companion joining me on my BOS-LAX RT, I need to fly 60K miles to get us both all set up. Fabulous! No more NAMUs to solve this problem, either.

So, due to the above math, I expect to see lots more empty F seats.


A few more thoughts, some mentioned above, sorry for repetition:

What happens with Amex 10K? I have already earned a bonus of 10K base miles that should be deposited upon my March renewal. That had better become 10K MQM, or they've breached, IMO.

What about the 10/15-12/15 base miles towards 2004 program? In truth, this is a small issue. For me personally, I could only gain by getting extra credit for expensive tix in that time frame, as I had no LUTs. But what about for those who had lots of LUTs. However, I say it is a small issue because we are all promised GM for 2004 as per the new rules. My 10/15-12/15 plus Amex bonus just about gets me to GM under the old system. Not sure if I care to strive for PM again.

Personally, my qualifying for levels won't be hindered much. I fly enough YBM to counter the LUT. In fact, it would give me incentive to fly award tix rather than LUT. What really changes for me personally is what that PM is worth. With the new domestic upgrade program that I will face in 2004, I don't really have much incentive to go for PM. I might as well start choosing more convenient flights than being loyal to DL.

Oh, one bit of genius on the part of DL/McK is that for many of us, and especially the most valuable (PM), we won't see much difference until 2004. We have incentive to stick around 12 months. So we have no immediate incentive to run away for awhile. And by 12/03, all other majors will have responded.

As is obvious from my post and others, this is an issue that affects each person a bit differently. For a few people, there is some upside. For most, there is big downside. The downside for each of us is a bit unique from one another. That is what makes the reading on these threads interesting... to see how each is affected a bit differently.

Again, I think I will ride out 2003 and enjoy my privileges for the last time. I'll be able to tell the grandkids about the "good old days" when I never saw the back of the bus.

Edited to add a thanks to "Taylor" (UDH), who is a constant source of news, even when the news is disappointing. He/she once again shows that DL employees are the tops, even if we resent management strategies. Thanks UDH, for giving us the early heads up, and for the little "survey" hint you dropped yesterday.

[This message has been edited by andymo99 (edited 12-11-2002).]

I'm sticking with Delta...you mean all of you fly on Luser fares all the time..hey at least now you have a change at an upgrade..a couple of cross country cheap K fares and I'll easily requalify for GM or PM in 2004..and I'm sure there will probably be some double base mile promos and what about 10000 base from amex.for 25k a year spending..it's still pretty easy..give Delta a chance to make a little money off of elite status..hope all of you leaving enjoy flying with bankrupt US AIR and United ! Let us know if the grass is greener....

Why are you assuming that there will be double base promos?

As a PM who qualifies by segments each year, I'm not happy. I was surprised at the scope of the changes and also of the innovativeness of some of them. Like Andymo99 the negative change to the domestic upgrade system for PM's is the one that is hardest to swallow for me, and is causing me to question my loyality to DL for the first time. To go from the current situation in which, as a PM, flying 10,000 miles effectively gets you upgraded on 100 % of your next 10,000 miles (due to unlimited upgrades, to the new system where flying 10,000 miles gets you upgraded on only 20 % of your next 10,000 miles (4 x 500-mile upgrades) is really tough. In effect that's an 80 % reduction in PM domestic upgrade benefeits and seems like a really steep decline to make all in one go. I guess they want to free up more seats in F so they can increase their revenue from the "buy an upgrade at the gate" scheme. I think that on occasions there may be some interesting decisions for me to make - whether to buy a K fare and be pretty certain of an upgrade but using precious 500-milers, or buying an insULT fare and chancing the upgrade will still be available and again diminishing one's stock of 500-milers, or not upgrading with 500-milers and hoping the upgrade will be available for $50 at the gate. Certainly I would think that with this new system, DL's revenue from the "buy an upgrade at the gate" scheme should increase dramatically!

I'm an eternal optimist !

My clients require that I fly on the lowest available fare. In the past I have barely made Gold on Delta (Gold on US; Gold on AA; Platinum on CO). Given these rule changes, I will barely make Silver. I haven't been able to upgarde for two years (ULT fares) so the miniscule change of an upgrade at the last minute is nice, but the revenue based accrual will drive me to increase my use of my other Gold status carriers rather than fly Delta. Rather than increasing revenue, I foresee a decrease in the number of travelers for DL.

As I gain my miles with transatlantic YBM flights, my qualificaitn will not be worse, or even better.

I will get less e-upgrades, but will be able to use them eventually, as I purchase U tickets within US.

I do not see really what would be the need for me to become platinum now, except for the lounges.

So, for me, these modifications are in the good direction.


I just wonder if we can change at any moment our preference for 4-500 miles upgrade or 5000 miles. It is not said yet.

Some interesting changes, a lot of them too. I was surprised to see the vast number of changes.

Medallion Qualification: Some big changes here, and of course, it's a hit to Medallion members who mostly fly on LUT fares. It's an attempt to generate additional revenue, and as such, definitely rewards full fares and premium cabin pax. I was surprised that they took out the qualification by segments. With the RPU guarding segment enhancers (i.e. triple/quadruple connects cross country), I figured they would still allow qualification by segments, at the very least, qualification by full fare segments (like NW will be doing starting 2003). In a few years, this will also weed out the ranks of Medallion members. My question here is whether or not Medallion Qualification Miles will have a minimum of 250 miles.

Upgrades: The PM upgrade changes are quite severe. DL did have a very favorable program with unlimited confirmed upgrades at time of booking. As mentioned, this basically offered PMs first class at K fares. I was expecting that either the unlimited upgrades or the confirmed at time of booking would go, but I am very surprised both were taken away.
Upgrades certainly have been made a lot chinchier, and now matches AA and UA's programs. The difference of course is the time of confirmation. It's still time of booking for full fares, but day of departure for ULT fares. It's also interesting as it appears that mileage upgrades will be available on all fares (including ULT) in North America, at least for Medallion members, starting Jan 1, 2004. I wonder if this will be available for regular SkyMiles members. Now that all fares will be upgradeable again, does this mean Delta has come to realize that not offering upgrades on LUT fares does not make most Medallions buy K+ fares? Are they conceding on the upgrade front and choosing instead to go after the status mile front? It should be interesting to see just how many Medallion members will buy K+ (or even M+) fares for the status miles.

Additional Rewards: I think these changes were quite original, even if they are taken from other programs. They are original from a US FF program standpoint. The Million Miler program is a nice change, especially for those who have already flown a lot on DL.
The new incentive levels are quite interesting in that it allows for gifting of status (like BA) or a carry over of status miles. It's quite inventive, in my opinion, as it does give a lot of flexibility in terms of the time frame to earn status.
I also liked the option of earning 5000 SkyMiles instead of upgrades at each 10000 mile threshold. This is essentially a 50% extra elite bonus and would be quite useful for international members, and premium cabin passengers, or those who don't neccessarily want to upgrade. My question regarding to this whether or not this option can be changed. That is, can I choose to earn the 50% bonus in 2004 but earn upgrades in 2005?

Overall, I can't say whether or not I like or dislike these changes. On the one hand, I will be able to upgrade on any fare (or get more SkyMiles). On the other hand, medallion qualification is now twice as hard.

As for other carriers matching these changes, with so few days left in 2002, I can't imagine another carrier announcing such sweeping changes before the year is out. I would imagine that most carriers would watch the reception of these changes first and then re-evaluate the changes for implmentation in Jan 2004 or at the earliest the middle of 2003.

[This message has been edited by keithguy (edited 12-11-2002).]

Although I requalified for PM this year with mainly K+ fares, it is the dramatic upgrade reduction that will move my former DL business. As others have correctly identified, at least AA has MRTC. I'm not booking any flights on DL this year unless DL decides that a PM can earn upgrades much more rapidly than a GM or FO.

I'm not investing any effort with DL since as a non-hub city resident they do not provide me service that I can't get elsewhere. Their complete abandonment of Asia almost resulted in my leaving them this year. Even the possibility to upgrade a L,U, or T will not change the fact that I am now entering a SkyMiles burn mode.

CWPFLY