LexPassenger

Just when you thought it was safe.... Delta & its Pilots are at it again.

James Pilcher at the Cincinnati Enquirer has found opinions across the board as to whether this will blow up into another painful confrontation or not.

------------------
"Service" should be a noun, not a verb.
Delta Flyers' Guide

freeupgrade

Give me a break - as if the pilots haven't been given enough already.

What greed. Unbelievable.

FlyDeltasJets

With all due respect, Free, I don't think that you are aware of the ramifications of this issue.

Our jobs are being outsourced to low cost workers. We are trying to prevent that. I don't consider it greed, but preservation. If we were factory workers trying to stop management from sending jobs overseas, we would be heros and 60 Minutes would be doing stories about us. But because we are pilots, we are automatically labled "greedy". I am being furloughed. Our regional partners are hiring like crazy in order to perform flying that has always been done by Delta pilots. I think that is wrong, I think it is a threat to my career, and the fight to end the loss of our jobs is worth far more to me than my hourly wage. Not to mention, I think most passengers would agree with me that they would rather be on a mainline jet than an rj.

That being said, I don't expect to convice you or anyone else. I know that there are certain people who think airline pilots are "greedy". It is certainly their right to think so. I know better than to waste much time attempting to change their minds.

By the way, I would not expect any interruption of service as a result of this issue.

Thanks for flying Delta.

B747-437B

Surprisingly enough, I support DALPA's position here. Delta has a bad habit of enforcing contract provisions when it suits them and totally disregarding them when it does not.

DALPA created a lot of their own problems by refusing to consider Delta's voluntary attrition programs in September, but this total disregard for the scope clause provisions is complete crap. Delta have been using creative accounting for the last 12 months to hide their true operational performance, and these cooked numbers are being used to trigger the block hour renegotiation clause.

Will Buergey has his work cut out for him here, because I don't see Delta backing down on this issue easily. Good luck DALPA, you guys are gonna need all of that and then some.

FlyDeltasJets

Thank you for your support 747. It is appreciated.

sparkzone

Well, I am also on pilot side on protecting job but ..... the trend right now is to cut cost. Unless mainline pilot willing to take a cut, RJ hiring will continue. Remember DL mgmt is responsible to shareholder not pilot, FA, etc. Both are ALPA, any conflict of interest????

BTW, factory's job are still ship overseas because they are cheaper (vice versa). Japanese make car in US because its cheaper. Sometime I wonder why they are no strike in TOYOTA USA, HONDA USA, etc???

edited to add ALPA conlfict of interest.

[This message has been edited by sparkzone (edited 03-15-2002).]

ATLJV

I may be totally shortsighted here, but since DL owns both ASA and Comair, and both are represented by ALPA, why just not create one seniority list. A CRJ captain would automatically move up to mainline when the jobs opened up.

LexPassenger

ATLJV: surely a logical idea, but neither Delta nor the pilots at mainstream Delta want it... Delta, because the current system lets it divide-and-rule more easily. The pilots... er, it seems to be a psychological thing concerning the career originations the different tracks have used up to now, and the historic military background of many mainline pilots, especially the older ones, compared to the civilian Comair Academy and similar training of the "commuter" pilots. This is a very complex issue I, for one, certainly do not understand.

FlyDeltaJets: I sure hope you get recalled soon. We're buying tickets and doing our part. But I know that when I read the contract proposal on the PB boards last year, that part about scope sliding if the airline had losses looked like a big out for management to me. If I were you guys, I'd be trying very hard to convince management it needs to fill the gap between 50 and 142 passenger planes with a bunch of new 717s that you guys would be happy to fly cheaply enough to make it worth their while, rather than pick another big fight.... never gonna happen, I guess.

437: I agree about the accounting. Didn't you say Delta's last quarter's numbers showed how awful they were doing, though? Second thoughts?

------------------
"Service" should be a noun, not a verb.
Delta Flyers' Guide

FlyDeltasJets

Regarding the single seniority list, there are a lot of issues which are involved here. Some pilots support it, some do not. The most important thing to consider is that even if we wanted a single list, we don't have the power to achieve it. There is nothing in our contract that forces Delta to merge the lists. Also, Delta has already accepted an 89 day Comair strike to maintain the cost advantage they have with their connection carriers. I highly doubt that we could ever convince them to give up that advantage by combining the lists.
It is a good idea, but I don't think it is a realistic one.

Also, I am well aware that management has an obligation to the shareholders to cut costs. However, I am equally aware that the union has an obligation to its members to protect jobs. Each are important and worthwhile goals.

To lex and the others who fly Delta: We really do appreciate your business. Thanks. Keep it up and hopefully we'll all be back to work soon!

BertBamboo

I am truly sorry that you are being furloughed. I greatly respect and appreciate the great job that pilots consistently deliver.


I disagree in the strongest possible way with your union�s response to the furloughs. If there were ever an event that qualified as �force majeure�, the attacks of 9/11 are it. Your union disagrees that 9/11 is the cause of the furloughs, instead claiming Delta�s financial performance is the cause. The �spin� reasoning and torturous logic that you and your fellow pilots use to justify your grievance is truly shameless and clearly indicates how ALPA will stop at nothing on heaven or earth to achieve its mercenary goals. (Reference the distasteful pilot discussion currently taking place on the FlightInfo.com message boards, specifically: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthr...&threadid=2916 )


You mean nothing like we experienced during your overtime refusal in Dec/Jan 2001 designed to give Delta and the flying public a taste of the pilot union�s collective will and resolve just prior to the final contract negotiations? (And later found by the court to be an illegal work action by your union).

FlyDeltasJets

Luckily for us, Bert, you are not the arbitrator. He is paid to listen to evidence from both sides and consider it thoughtfully before making a decision. You have done neither.

That being said, I will not start an argument on this board. I enjoy visiting it because it does not contain the animosity that is found on other boards. I find it to be an interesting source of information, and I hope it continues to be so. Therefore, I won't respond to your obviously baised post.

I do thank you for flying Delta.



[This message has been edited by FlyDeltasJets (edited 03-15-2002).]

BertBamboo

My impartiality is not the issue here nor have I lobbied for the job. (Neither are you impartial.) The issue which I raise is the total lack of principle which you and your union exhibits in making frivolous claims and perfidious arguments attempting to spin 9/11 into a non-event to turn back furloughs.


I don�t blame you. If the readers of this board were fully aware of the deceptive double-talk your union is making, cloaked in the closed-door privacy of a grievance proceeding and safely hidden from public scrutiny, I believe you would receive numerous critical comments such as mine.


Again, I don�t blame you. You won�t be able to make much headway in a public debate. Your best chance is a lucky draw with a sympathetic arbitrator. Hopefully we will see his decision soon.

LAOCA

Good luck if you bring the one list debate over here, that's a hot one! Maybe at the same time we can debate the RJ Coalition and other related matters!

B747-437B

Some comments that reflect my opinion :

a) Furloughs are clearly a consequence of 9/11 and hence fall under force majeure. Even though ALPA contests that fact, it is more to gain leverage and make a point than an actual hope of winning the matter in arbitration.

b) ALPA shot themselves in the foot by refusing Dave Bushey's offer in September to extend the voluntary attrition program to the pilot group. Once they declined that, they left Delta with no choice but to proceed with invol furloughs. Alas, it is poor line pilots like FlyDeltaJets who are suffering from the fallout of Giambusso/Buergey politics.

c) Delta's attempts to abrogate the ALPA contract through excercise of the financial performance provisions is despicable and typical of the hypocrisy and doublespeak that management employs when dealing with union groups (see AFA threads for more details).

d) A single seniority list would be a bloodbath for integration, and would also restrict Delta from spinning off ASA or Comair to raise additional capital (see Northwest/Express I, Continental/ExpressJet) if the need arises. I don't see this happening, not now and not anytime soon.

e) ALPA as an organization comes across as greedy, but it isn't fair to extend that stereotype to the junior line pilots who are the ones REALLY suffering in this kind of dispute. The 767 and 777 captains who control the MEC know that their 6-figure jobs are safe, but its the guys with 2-3 years seniority who have oodles of debt still left to pay down and don't make anything near as much as the bigwigs who will bear the brunt of the fallout.

BertBamboo

I believe you are exactly correct here B747-437B. Where ALPA has succeeded extremely well is in the radicalization of the mainline rank and file junior pilots. (One-on-one they are nice guys. I know because several are my neighbors. I feel confident that FDJ is a decent guy also.) The mainline juniors support the union with a rabid fundamentalist fervor while the seniors to sit comfortably and quietly in the background allowing the juniors do the heavy lifting and suffer the slings and arrows of furloughs.

The juniors haven't figured out they're being duped by a feudal master-apprentice system. I believe the primary reason that ALPA aggressively seeks to represent both mainline and RJ pilots is so that the mainline godfathers won't have to worry about the �B� team pilots crossing the picket line in the event of a mainline strike.

(Edited for clarity and verb tense corrections.)


[This message has been edited by BertBamboo (edited 03-15-2002).]