LexPassenger

FlyDeltaJets: many of us very much appreciate your contributions here, and we all hope your hiatus is short.

437: what you said. If I were poxing on houses, I'd agree that they're both guilty, but that management is more arrogantly and powerfully and stupidly guilty. It is a REAL BIG SHAME that division and confrontation so often paves the road to political success.

Bert: Took the words right out of my mouth.... you used to read PlaneBusiness too, I see...?



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"Service" should be a noun, not a verb.
Delta Flyers' Guide

seeyou

Why are Delta pilots paid 3x as much as Southwest pilots?

theDeltaFlyer

Sure there is. Make Delta weather an 89 day strike of it's mainline pilots ... they'd be cying like babies by day 10.

Yes it would suck for all of us ... for a while. But like when you get a shot from the doctor the hurt goes away and you're better off for it. We all be better not being stuffed into RJ's (weren't they supposed to be a 'prop' replacement anyway to make 'regional' travel more palatable) just because DL likes cheap labor.

No disrespect to any RJ pilot intended. You guys have to do the take-off's and landings just as safely.

Every time I start to think unions are only good for the union leadership, an airline proves me wrong.

FlyDeltaJets, hope you're back soon. They say travel is picking up ... and I see it getting more crowded every day.

edited to add:
Would DL really want to spin-off ComAir of ASA? They recently (relatively) completed the full purchase, no? They did this for the control and leverage, no?

I don't pretend to know more about this industry than what I read (and then try to distill the facts) but I read a good bit. I'm interested in comments from those who know (B747, et. al.). Thanks.

[This message has been edited by theDeltaFlyer (edited 03-15-2002).]

Robert Leach

I agree so much with LexPassenger about the middle ground that could be carved wherein the union agrees to a very cost effective pay rate to fly a 90-100 seat mainline jet (e.g., a 717) and the airline agrees to buy said jet and put it on these 700-1000 mile RJ routes plus other major market legs being flown currently by RJs (e.g., SLC-MSP, ORD-JFK, ATL-SAT, etc.).

Junior pilots could be recalled to fly these new jets. Delta passengers could once again enjoy first class service in these markets. The extra RJs freed by this move could be put in the short haul markets that deserve them (retiring all the props in the process, which would make me immensely happy). If the pilots did their part and agreed on very airline-friendly pay rates for these new jets, we could have a win-win-win deal here. I'm sure Boeing would love to sell a few of these new jets as well. And from all indications, the 717 is a nice performer.

Is this just too simple for Delta to consider? I think it would offer a competitive advantage to have all this new mainline service. Is the airline so wedded to fleet commonality that the 717 is so out of the question? Are the pilots so stubborn that they wouldn't accept job stability for lower pay on this new introductory-level aircraft in the fleet?

To the first question, I suspect the answer is yes. To the second, I suspect the answer is no, and that the pilots would play ball on this.

B747-437B

I think its the other way around. Fleet commonality would not be an issue. If you look at the number of subfleets that Delta already operates (MD-90, Germania 733, Gulf Air 767, etc..), they are not radically opposed to a subfleet when the operation of that subfleet makes fiscal sense.

Job stability for lower pay is a phrase that SCREAMS Frank Lorenzo at ALPA. Regardless if it makes sense or not, they WILL NOT GO FOR IT. Pay scales will stay where they are and any 717 drivers will have to be paid at LEAST the same as the 737 drivers are getting ($138 cap on a 12yr FO, $202 cap on a 12yr Captain).

Seth

Most factory workers don't make 100-300 dollars an hour and only have to work 80 hrs a month.

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Hell hath no fury like that of an elite frequent flyer in coach.

I am not real smart, but I can lift heavy things.

B747-437B

Seth, you totally reveal your ignorance about the profession with statements like that.

The 80 hrs per month that you speak of ONLY includes time when the aircraft is away from the gate. For an pilot flying shorthauls, this can mean almost 200 hrs/month spent in airports and aboard planes to get paid for only 80 hrs. This does not even address the time spent away from home in hotels and layover destinations.

Additionally, just like MOST factory workers don't make that kind of money - nor do MOST pilots. A pilot with 18 months seniority flying an MD80 as copilot with Delta makes $52/hour. This makes him one of the best paid in his class too. At American he would make $34/hour, at Continental $29/hour and at Spirit $25/hour.

Robert Leach

Plus:

Most factory workers don't get fired and have their career ended for one mistake;

Most factory workers don't have a restriction on drinking alcohol the night before their shift;

Most factory workers don't have to operate in a different time zone each day, at widely varying hours, while maintaining a zero error rate;

Most factory workers don't have 200 potential litigants depending on their every move for safety;

Etc.

Etc.

LAOCA

I second that.

BertBamboo

LexPassenger: I remember reading your posts over there. I believe you are referring to the guild analogy. I don't remember if you or one of the pilots originally made the point.

LAOCA, LexPassenger, Robert Leach: I agree wholeheartedly and I think we all recognize the unique nature of the pilots� work and we all want the pilots to be paid well. They do a great job and I do not rejoice in FDJ�s furlough. My disagreement focuses on the tactics employed by the union leadership (which FDJ actively endorses and supports). In this specific case, their attempt to spin away the impact of 9/11. This reveals an underlying culture of faithless and intentional disregard of the facts in the pursuit of their one-sided agenda.


[This message has been edited by BertBamboo (edited 03-16-2002).]

ConnFlyer

Actually, I think DL is becoming more and more radically opposed to subfleets. The Germania 733's are being retired real soon and the MD90's weren't supposed to be a subfleet...DL had a much larger order in at one time.

How can ALPA expect to be paid the same for flying the 717 as a 738? Last I checked, the 738 seats 154 and I know Airtran's 717's seat 117. So why would you pay pilot's equivalent amounts for flying a smaller plane?? No wonder Airtran is eating DL's lunch.

B747-437B

Actually, DL has a seperate higher scale for the 738. I am referring to the 733 and DLX 732 scales which are comparable in capacity to the 717.

Seth

My comment was simplistic perhaps, but hardly ignorant. I worked for a major airline prior to graduate school, and have many friends that work as pilots for "the majors". I agree that the 80 hr time limit does not include down time, and not everyone makes 200-300 dollars an hour. However, as with most professions, with seniority comes pay increases. I am not saying that pilots don't deserve to be paid well. I am saying that, as a profession, they tend to do very well financially but spend a lot of time whining about it.

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Hell hath no fury like that of an elite frequent flyer in coach.

I am not real smart, but I can lift heavy things.

B747-437B

AMEN! I couldn't agree with this statement more!

Seth

I agree pilots work hard and are under a lot of pressure. They deserve to be paid well and treated fairly. However, at what point does "fair pay" become "you have got to be kidding?" At what point do pilots have the right to hold airlines and passengers "hostage" in their attempts to make more money?

I do not have answers to the above questions. However, I do know that if pilots and management for several airlines don't stop looking at the business as "us vs them", the traveling public will have less choices in the future because some airlines will not be around. This would benefit NO ONE.

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Hell hath no fury like that of an elite frequent flyer in coach.

I am not real smart, but I can lift heavy things.

[This message has been edited by Seth (edited 03-16-2002).]