Strangest (And Most Violent) Flight Ever Yesterday (Long)
Sep 27, 2009, 11:18 pm
#46
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I was involved in a somewhat similar situation more than ten years ago on a very early morning domestic flight in FC. As I remember it, there was more space then between the seats, which were soft and wide, than is the case now. The guy in the aisle seat behind me was a distinguised looking middle-aged businessman of average size and height.
After breakfast was finished and the trays were removed (in the good old days of hot breakfasts), I put on my eyeshades and slowly reclined my seat. Instantly, the guy behind me in the expensive-looking three piece suit started to pound on my seat back and to attempt to force it up. In the process, he pulled some of my hair when he grabbed the top of my seatback. I reflexively let out an "ouch" and he told me that I "just can't" recline my seat. I fleetingly thought about going up to the kitchen and talking to the FC flight attendant discretely, but since I really needed to sleep before my meeting presentation, I just said "yes I can" and pointedly put my eyeshades back on to signal that the conversation was over.
Then just as I had gotten to sleep, I jumped awake when I felt someone's hand feeling around my upper legs (knees and thighs). The guy had gotten up out of his seat and was standing over me, apparently trying to find the button under my blanket to un-recline my seat himself. At this point, I told him firmly and loudly that if he didn't keep his hands away from my legs, I would have him charged with assault. (I admit I was faking it as I didn't know whether this sort of touching a stranger would be considered a crime or not in whatever state would have jurisdiction, but I hoped that the authority and threat in my voice might make him believe that I was a lawyer.) Everyone, including the FA, in the FC section turned to look--fortunately, no one but me had been trying to sleep--and he sat back down in a huff. He then complained loudly in language I can't repeat about me to his seatmate for the rest of the flight. Needless to say, I didn't get any sleep on that plane.
In retrospect, I don't know if I could have or should have gotten help from the flight attendant. Changing seats would not have been an easy option as the flight was completely full. It never seriously occurred to me to try to report the incident to any authorities and I don't know whether the FA reported him in any way. She was certainly aware of at least the later part of what had happened, but she never said anything to me about it. (For all I know, the guy in question was an airline executive.) Maybe I would have reacted differently if it hadn't been so early in the morning.
After breakfast was finished and the trays were removed (in the good old days of hot breakfasts), I put on my eyeshades and slowly reclined my seat. Instantly, the guy behind me in the expensive-looking three piece suit started to pound on my seat back and to attempt to force it up. In the process, he pulled some of my hair when he grabbed the top of my seatback. I reflexively let out an "ouch" and he told me that I "just can't" recline my seat. I fleetingly thought about going up to the kitchen and talking to the FC flight attendant discretely, but since I really needed to sleep before my meeting presentation, I just said "yes I can" and pointedly put my eyeshades back on to signal that the conversation was over.
Then just as I had gotten to sleep, I jumped awake when I felt someone's hand feeling around my upper legs (knees and thighs). The guy had gotten up out of his seat and was standing over me, apparently trying to find the button under my blanket to un-recline my seat himself. At this point, I told him firmly and loudly that if he didn't keep his hands away from my legs, I would have him charged with assault. (I admit I was faking it as I didn't know whether this sort of touching a stranger would be considered a crime or not in whatever state would have jurisdiction, but I hoped that the authority and threat in my voice might make him believe that I was a lawyer.) Everyone, including the FA, in the FC section turned to look--fortunately, no one but me had been trying to sleep--and he sat back down in a huff. He then complained loudly in language I can't repeat about me to his seatmate for the rest of the flight. Needless to say, I didn't get any sleep on that plane.
In retrospect, I don't know if I could have or should have gotten help from the flight attendant. Changing seats would not have been an easy option as the flight was completely full. It never seriously occurred to me to try to report the incident to any authorities and I don't know whether the FA reported him in any way. She was certainly aware of at least the later part of what had happened, but she never said anything to me about it. (For all I know, the guy in question was an airline executive.) Maybe I would have reacted differently if it hadn't been so early in the morning.
Sep 27, 2009, 11:39 pm
#47
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Out of 19 replies, only one (above) suggested giving an immediate and direct consequence to the man's inappropriate actions? Everyone else wants to sue, press charges, tell their mommies, or write a scathing satire for the New Yorker? What happened to stopping people from crossing the line immediately and authoritatively? What has this world come to?
Sep 28, 2009, 12:14 am
#48
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I was involved in a somewhat similar situation more than ten years ago on a very early morning domestic flight in FC. As I remember it, there was more space then between the seats, which were soft and wide, than is the case now. The guy in the aisle seat behind me was a distinguised looking middle-aged businessman of average size and height.
After breakfast was finished and the trays were removed (in the good old days of hot breakfasts), I put on my eyeshades and slowly reclined my seat. Instantly, the guy behind me in the expensive-looking three piece suit started to pound on my seat back and to attempt to force it up. In the process, he pulled some of my hair when he grabbed the top of my seatback. I reflexively let out an "ouch" and he told me that I "just can't" recline my seat. I fleetingly thought about going up to the kitchen and talking to the FC flight attendant discretely, but since I really needed to sleep before my meeting presentation, I just said "yes I can" and pointedly put my eyeshades back on to signal that the conversation was over.
Then just as I had gotten to sleep, I jumped awake when I felt someone's hand feeling around my upper legs (knees and thighs). The guy had gotten up out of his seat and was standing over me, apparently trying to find the button under my blanket to un-recline my seat himself. At this point, I told him firmly and loudly that if he didn't keep his hands away from my legs, I would have him charged with assault. (I admit I was faking it as I didn't know whether this sort of touching a stranger would be considered a crime or not in whatever state would have jurisdiction, but I hoped that the authority and threat in my voice might make him believe that I was a lawyer.) Everyone, including the FA, in the FC section turned to look--fortunately, no one but me had been trying to sleep--and he sat back down in a huff. He then complained loudly in language I can't repeat about me to his seatmate for the rest of the flight. Needless to say, I didn't get any sleep on that plane.
In retrospect, I don't know if I could have or should have gotten help from the flight attendant. Changing seats would not have been an easy option as the flight was completely full. It never seriously occurred to me to try to report the incident to any authorities and I don't know whether the FA reported him in any way. She was certainly aware of at least the later part of what had happened, but she never said anything to me about it. (For all I know, the guy in question was an airline executive.) Maybe I would have reacted differently if it hadn't been so early in the morning.
After breakfast was finished and the trays were removed (in the good old days of hot breakfasts), I put on my eyeshades and slowly reclined my seat. Instantly, the guy behind me in the expensive-looking three piece suit started to pound on my seat back and to attempt to force it up. In the process, he pulled some of my hair when he grabbed the top of my seatback. I reflexively let out an "ouch" and he told me that I "just can't" recline my seat. I fleetingly thought about going up to the kitchen and talking to the FC flight attendant discretely, but since I really needed to sleep before my meeting presentation, I just said "yes I can" and pointedly put my eyeshades back on to signal that the conversation was over.
Then just as I had gotten to sleep, I jumped awake when I felt someone's hand feeling around my upper legs (knees and thighs). The guy had gotten up out of his seat and was standing over me, apparently trying to find the button under my blanket to un-recline my seat himself. At this point, I told him firmly and loudly that if he didn't keep his hands away from my legs, I would have him charged with assault. (I admit I was faking it as I didn't know whether this sort of touching a stranger would be considered a crime or not in whatever state would have jurisdiction, but I hoped that the authority and threat in my voice might make him believe that I was a lawyer.) Everyone, including the FA, in the FC section turned to look--fortunately, no one but me had been trying to sleep--and he sat back down in a huff. He then complained loudly in language I can't repeat about me to his seatmate for the rest of the flight. Needless to say, I didn't get any sleep on that plane.
In retrospect, I don't know if I could have or should have gotten help from the flight attendant. Changing seats would not have been an easy option as the flight was completely full. It never seriously occurred to me to try to report the incident to any authorities and I don't know whether the FA reported him in any way. She was certainly aware of at least the later part of what had happened, but she never said anything to me about it. (For all I know, the guy in question was an airline executive.) Maybe I would have reacted differently if it hadn't been so early in the morning.
Thanks to everyone for actually reading my probably record-length-for-a non-trip report post. I really appreciate all of the insight and the kind words. Especially those for my newborn son!
I'm concluding that a reasonable and prudent person who didn't accidentally book the row in front of an exit row can expect to recline their seat. Reasonableness also recommends that one take other factors into consideration. For example, is the person behind you Manute Bol? Or, is the person behind you leaning forward to retrieve something from under your seat? I don't think reasonableness can expect something so extreme, although it is clearly in the realm of possibilities. (Clear now to me, anyway.)
FWIW, I didn't recline to make a point or to give that guy the middle finger; I reclined to take some pressure off of my lower back. I strive to be a look-out-for-my-fellow-traveler kind of guy, while pooling any pettiness for Yankees-Red Sox games.
In retrospect I wish that I had involved the FA sooner. I'm very curious to hear what any FA's have to add. What do you think I should have done?
Sep 28, 2009, 3:14 pm
#49
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I think you handled it as best you could. Can't let the bully win-that only enables and empowers him for future bad behavior. You made the right call and properly prioritized family over further escalation. Hopefully the FA reported this guy on her own. I am curious, however, how did he treat you while deplaning?
Sep 28, 2009, 3:37 pm
#50
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Out of 19 replies, only one (above) suggested giving an immediate and direct consequence to the man's inappropriate actions? Everyone else wants to sue, press charges, tell their mommies, or write a scathing satire for the New Yorker? What happened to stopping people from crossing the line immediately and authoritatively? What has this world come to?
In many states, one is only allowed to attack up to the point that the immediate threat to one’s life is removed. And many cases, if the simple act of moving away from the assailant (i.e. being reseated) would have fixed the issue, any further action would not have been justified. (Note, even though the plane might be full, there is usually at least one jump seat open that a level-headed FA would let one use.)
At the end of the day, the last thing anyone wants is for the assailant to have a legitimate claim against one’s self. As for what the world has come to, sadly, there are far too many sue happy folks out there, so one has to operate in a manner that leaves little question that their action's were lawful.
Sep 28, 2009, 6:37 pm
#51
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As much fun as it might be to go all "crouching tiger" on the guy, the law takes a dim view of someone who responds with full force against someone 1.5+ times their age. Putting someone in a stretcher is not an appropriate response to a person grabbing ones arm.
In many states, one is only allowed to attack up to the point that the immediate threat to ones life is removed. And many cases, if the simple act of moving away from the assailant (i.e. being reseated) would have fixed the issue, any further action would not have been justified. (Note, even though the plane might be full, there is usually at least one jump seat open that a level-headed FA would let one use.)
At the end of the day, the last thing anyone wants is for the assailant to have a legitimate claim against ones self. As for what the world has come to, sadly, there are far too many sue happy folks out there, so one has to operate in a manner that leaves little question that their action's were lawful.
In many states, one is only allowed to attack up to the point that the immediate threat to ones life is removed. And many cases, if the simple act of moving away from the assailant (i.e. being reseated) would have fixed the issue, any further action would not have been justified. (Note, even though the plane might be full, there is usually at least one jump seat open that a level-headed FA would let one use.)
At the end of the day, the last thing anyone wants is for the assailant to have a legitimate claim against ones self. As for what the world has come to, sadly, there are far too many sue happy folks out there, so one has to operate in a manner that leaves little question that their action's were lawful.
Sep 28, 2009, 10:01 pm
#52
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I applaud those who choose discretion in this matter. I firmly believe it is the correct thing to do with a crazy and is the best course of action both for you and for him.... That being said, I likely would have kindly reminded him that you will both be exiting the secured area shortly and would be happy to continue the conversation then all while giving him a look that says I have no problem with hurting old people when they deserve it.
Sep 29, 2009, 12:15 am
#54
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I think you handled it as best you could. Can't let the bully win-that only enables and empowers him for future bad behavior. You made the right call and properly prioritized family over further escalation. Hopefully the FA reported this guy on her own. I am curious, however, how did he treat you while deplaning?
Sep 29, 2009, 12:42 am
#55
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First, the age of the actor has nothing to do with the behavior. The burden of proof lies with anyone who feels age (particularly older in age, and presumably wiser) should mediate the response to the behavior.
Second, the involvement of legal authorities is unnecessary and undesired. The easy way to counter the aggressor's behavior is for him to retract a broken radius/ulna or a broken/dislocated wrist after reaching into your personal space. It can be done rather discreetly; and if he makes a sound, he will have to explain what he was doing. The injury is consistent with a rapid, reflexic response to someone's extended arm striking you, and thus legally defensible if need be. I never suggested going over the seat or "taking the fight to the enemy".
As someone who has been the victim of unprovoked violence on multiple occasions, with zero legal remedy, I will never again wait for the cavalry to come. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Sep 29, 2009, 1:24 am
#56
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...The easy way to counter the aggressor's behavior is for him to retract a broken radius/ulna or a broken/dislocated wrist after reaching into your personal space. It can be done rather discreetly; and if he makes a sound, he will have to explain what he was doing. The injury is consistent with a rapid, reflexic response to someone's extended arm striking you, and thus legally defensible if need be. I never suggested going over the seat or "taking the fight to the enemy".
As someone who has been the victim of unprovoked violence on multiple occasions, with zero legal remedy, I will never again wait for the cavalry to come. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
As someone who has been the victim of unprovoked violence on multiple occasions, with zero legal remedy, I will never again wait for the cavalry to come. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Besides being overkill, it turns you into the aggressor in the eyes of the law. And I seriously doubt the kind of action necessary to break an arm or wrist could be considered "reflexic". You're also dreaming if you think there will be silence from a person whose arm or wrist was just broken.
Let's just hope this is just the macho of anonymity.
Sep 29, 2009, 7:10 am
#57
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To the OP
Well done for staying calm and collected in a bizarre situation. As to your question should you have called the police? I guess I'd answer: would it have been worth your time then or now?
I think you could make a case in either direction.
Dave
Well done for staying calm and collected in a bizarre situation. As to your question should you have called the police? I guess I'd answer: would it have been worth your time then or now?
I think you could make a case in either direction.
Dave
Sep 29, 2009, 7:33 am
#58
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No doubt about what I would have done...
Book em Dano!
Wife and little L2F would have had to wait while I watched the authorities slap the cuffs on the new BFF!
No way that jerk gets a free pass - hopefully the lesson learned would save the next unsuspecting traveler that is unfortunate enough to be seated in front of Mr Personality. The sad thing is that he probably has forgotten all about it by now.
Ditto the earlier posts - my hats off the the OP's ability to turn the other cheek.
My $.02!
Lov2fly
Wife and little L2F would have had to wait while I watched the authorities slap the cuffs on the new BFF!
No way that jerk gets a free pass - hopefully the lesson learned would save the next unsuspecting traveler that is unfortunate enough to be seated in front of Mr Personality. The sad thing is that he probably has forgotten all about it by now.
Ditto the earlier posts - my hats off the the OP's ability to turn the other cheek.
My $.02!
Lov2fly
Sep 29, 2009, 7:41 am
#59
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The offender now has even more reason to believe he can get away with similar behavior in the future.
Perhaps the next person the offender attacks for what he perceives to be a seat recline violation will be my wife or one of my daughters (or anyone else's loved one).
Sorry... but I have to believe that the OP had a responsibility to make this a officially memorable moment, and a learning opportunity, for the idiot behind him.
Perhaps the next person the offender attacks for what he perceives to be a seat recline violation will be my wife or one of my daughters (or anyone else's loved one).
Sorry... but I have to believe that the OP had a responsibility to make this a officially memorable moment, and a learning opportunity, for the idiot behind him.
Sep 29, 2009, 7:57 am
#60
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