Throw-Away Ticketing, Hidden City Ticketing, and Skipping Legs: The Definitive Thread
Aug 12, 2012, 10:23 am
#301
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Aug 12, 2012, 10:40 am
#302
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I've told the GA a few times in the past so that they don't hold the flight and can go ahead and release my seat. They don't seem to care why I'm not taking the flight. You can make up some excuse if it makes you feel better -- my meeting got cancelled, etc.
Aug 12, 2012, 10:43 am
#303
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It's not drinking Flavor-Aid. A hidden city ticket is no different than paying for one product but taking a different, more expensive product from any other company. An ethical person is honest about what they intend to buy and then pays the price or doesn't buy it. Would you walk up to the checkout counter at a grocery store with a carton of milk and say "You're charging $2 for this, but I don't want to pay $2, so instead I am going to pay for this carton of milk that's only $1, but I'm still going to take the one that costs $2." If you don't like the price DL charges for your itinerary, fly another carrier or drive.
Last edited by HongKonger; Aug 12, 2012 at 10:49 am
Aug 12, 2012, 10:45 am
#304
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I hope they charge your credit card for the fare difference. They are legally entitled to do so. But they probably won't catch you and so probably won't.
Aug 12, 2012, 11:20 am
#305
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Not sure why charging more for A-B than A-B-C is an ethical behavior in the first place.
It's not drinking Flavor-Aid. A hidden city ticket is no different than paying for one product but taking a different, more expensive product from any other company. An ethical person is honest about what they intend to buy and then pays the price or doesn't buy it. Would you walk up to the checkout counter at a grocery store with a carton of milk and say "You're charging $2 for this, but I don't want to pay $2, so instead I am going to pay for this carton of milk that's only $1, but I'm still going to take the one that costs $2." If you don't like the price DL charges for your itinerary, fly another carrier or drive.
If the grocery store sells milk for $2 but milk+cheese for $1, I'll buy the milk+cheese and throw the cheese away.
Last edited by blug; Aug 12, 2012 at 11:28 am
Aug 12, 2012, 12:08 pm
#306
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Can OP say that he/she needs to meet some friends at airport B during the layover, and ask to be rebooked through B?
Agents have probably heard this before. OP can say it, and maybe a friendly agent will do it, but they're under no obligation to do so, probably won't make any extraordinary effort to do so, and AFAIK it has never been reported on FT that anyone successfully did this. Maybe this will be the test case. It seems unlikely to work since if there is already an IROP of a flight from A-B requiring rebooking there is likely to be more capacity on another route rather than finding another flight to B.
Not sure why charging more for A-B than A-B-C is an ethical behavior in the first place.
How is it unethical? Companies price their offerings at the price the market will bear.
Have you ever bought a fair trade coffee or organic food? The fair trade practices certification and the organic agricultural practices don't add that much to the cost of producing the item. When you buy these things you are identifying yourself to the cafe/grocery as a customer who is willing to pay more for almost exactly the same item and they are happy to oblige you by charging you more. It's mostly profit. I do it anyway because I don't want pesticides and hormones in my food, but I am going into it with my eyes open. It sounds like you're not.
Do you know that groceries have 3-5 or more different prices for the same product? There's the labeled price, the price if you have a coupon, the price if you're a member of their discount card, the price when the item is on sale, etc, the price for their store brand vs the name brand which are often exactly the same (sometimes even made by the same production line), etc. Is this also unethical?
Not exactly the right analogy.
If the grocery store sells milk for $2 but milk+cheese for $1, I'll buy the milk+cheese and throw the cheese away.
Even worse analogy. In the case of the cheese you have relieved the grocery of its inventory so it has no need to try to sell it again. In the hidden city case, DL thinks OP is going to occupy a seat B-C and it then cannot sell that seat to someone else. So instead of receiving the price they actually charge for the itinerary OP actually wanted PLUS revenue from selling the B-C seat OP doesn't plan to occupy, DL receives the lower price on the hidden city itinerary and nothing for the B-C seat OP won't occupy.
Not to mention, in the case of the grocery you aren't signing a contract regarding what you do with the cheese after it becomes yours. In the case of DL (or any airline), when you buy a ticket you are agreeing to the contract of carriage governing that ticket and it is legally enforceable against you. Breaching a contract isn't necessarily unethical, but agreeing to it with the intent of breaching it is unethical. If DL finds out they are legally entitled to charge OP's credit card for the fare difference and/or revoke his SM account and all miles in it and he has zero recourse. I've never seen a thread on FT where that happened, but I will laugh my butt off the day it does.
DL does plenty of things bass ackward and I criticize them plenty for those things but that doesn't make it right to cheat them out of revenue.
Agents have probably heard this before. OP can say it, and maybe a friendly agent will do it, but they're under no obligation to do so, probably won't make any extraordinary effort to do so, and AFAIK it has never been reported on FT that anyone successfully did this. Maybe this will be the test case. It seems unlikely to work since if there is already an IROP of a flight from A-B requiring rebooking there is likely to be more capacity on another route rather than finding another flight to B.
Not sure why charging more for A-B than A-B-C is an ethical behavior in the first place.
How is it unethical? Companies price their offerings at the price the market will bear.
Have you ever bought a fair trade coffee or organic food? The fair trade practices certification and the organic agricultural practices don't add that much to the cost of producing the item. When you buy these things you are identifying yourself to the cafe/grocery as a customer who is willing to pay more for almost exactly the same item and they are happy to oblige you by charging you more. It's mostly profit. I do it anyway because I don't want pesticides and hormones in my food, but I am going into it with my eyes open. It sounds like you're not.
Do you know that groceries have 3-5 or more different prices for the same product? There's the labeled price, the price if you have a coupon, the price if you're a member of their discount card, the price when the item is on sale, etc, the price for their store brand vs the name brand which are often exactly the same (sometimes even made by the same production line), etc. Is this also unethical?
Not exactly the right analogy.
If the grocery store sells milk for $2 but milk+cheese for $1, I'll buy the milk+cheese and throw the cheese away.
Even worse analogy. In the case of the cheese you have relieved the grocery of its inventory so it has no need to try to sell it again. In the hidden city case, DL thinks OP is going to occupy a seat B-C and it then cannot sell that seat to someone else. So instead of receiving the price they actually charge for the itinerary OP actually wanted PLUS revenue from selling the B-C seat OP doesn't plan to occupy, DL receives the lower price on the hidden city itinerary and nothing for the B-C seat OP won't occupy.
Not to mention, in the case of the grocery you aren't signing a contract regarding what you do with the cheese after it becomes yours. In the case of DL (or any airline), when you buy a ticket you are agreeing to the contract of carriage governing that ticket and it is legally enforceable against you. Breaching a contract isn't necessarily unethical, but agreeing to it with the intent of breaching it is unethical. If DL finds out they are legally entitled to charge OP's credit card for the fare difference and/or revoke his SM account and all miles in it and he has zero recourse. I've never seen a thread on FT where that happened, but I will laugh my butt off the day it does.
DL does plenty of things bass ackward and I criticize them plenty for those things but that doesn't make it right to cheat them out of revenue.
Aug 12, 2012, 12:16 pm
#307
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Let's make this simple
1. Hidden city is expressly prohibited by the COC. Anybody can make up any excuse they want, but they are violating a contractual obligation they entered.
2. On the flip side of the coin, nobody can make anybody fly a segment they don't want to fly. Don't need to make up excuses and lie. All you owe is the fare difference.
3. There is a recent thread in which US caught an FT'r doing this on their second try in a month. No idea how long it takes DL. But, if you are caught, the most likely result is that your SM account is zeroed out and closed. Not a question of whether you earn miles/segments, but outright losing your account.
4. As others note, those who choose to scam this should not check bags, use their SM (or other FF#) and understand that in IRROPS, they get rerouted to C, not to B.
5. If this is a business trip, make sure your employer knows what you are doing. Many businesses tend to frown on those who scam other businesses, so may not be a career enhancer.
2. On the flip side of the coin, nobody can make anybody fly a segment they don't want to fly. Don't need to make up excuses and lie. All you owe is the fare difference.
3. There is a recent thread in which US caught an FT'r doing this on their second try in a month. No idea how long it takes DL. But, if you are caught, the most likely result is that your SM account is zeroed out and closed. Not a question of whether you earn miles/segments, but outright losing your account.
4. As others note, those who choose to scam this should not check bags, use their SM (or other FF#) and understand that in IRROPS, they get rerouted to C, not to B.
5. If this is a business trip, make sure your employer knows what you are doing. Many businesses tend to frown on those who scam other businesses, so may not be a career enhancer.
Aug 12, 2012, 12:35 pm
#309
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1. Hidden city is expressly prohibited by the COC. Anybody can make up any excuse they want, but they are violating a contractual obligation they entered.
2. On the flip side of the coin, nobody can make anybody fly a segment they don't want to fly. Don't need to make up excuses and lie. All you owe is the fare difference.
3. There is a recent thread in which US caught an FT'r doing this on their second try in a month. No idea how long it takes DL. But, if you are caught, the most likely result is that your SM account is zeroed out and closed. Not a question of whether you earn miles/segments, but outright losing your account.
4. As others note, those who choose to scam this should not check bags, use their SM (or other FF#) and understand that in IRROPS, they get rerouted to C, not to B.
5. If this is a business trip, make sure your employer knows what you are doing. Many businesses tend to frown on those who scam other businesses, so may not be a career enhancer.
2. On the flip side of the coin, nobody can make anybody fly a segment they don't want to fly. Don't need to make up excuses and lie. All you owe is the fare difference.
3. There is a recent thread in which US caught an FT'r doing this on their second try in a month. No idea how long it takes DL. But, if you are caught, the most likely result is that your SM account is zeroed out and closed. Not a question of whether you earn miles/segments, but outright losing your account.
4. As others note, those who choose to scam this should not check bags, use their SM (or other FF#) and understand that in IRROPS, they get rerouted to C, not to B.
5. If this is a business trip, make sure your employer knows what you are doing. Many businesses tend to frown on those who scam other businesses, so may not be a career enhancer.
[2] When red pigs fly... that is the whole point of this scam!
[4] But OP wanted to know if he'd get MQM for the segments he flew. He intends to put his SM# on this ticket. (Tee hee.)
Aug 12, 2012, 1:53 pm
#310
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Even worse analogy. In the case of the cheese you have relieved the grocery of its inventory so it has no need to try to sell it again. In the hidden city case, DL thinks OP is going to occupy a seat B-C and it then cannot sell that seat to someone else. So instead of receiving the price they actually charge for the itinerary OP actually wanted PLUS revenue from selling the B-C seat OP doesn't plan to occupy, DL receives the lower price on the hidden city itinerary and nothing for the B-C seat OP won't occupy.
Not to mention, in the case of the grocery you aren't signing a contract regarding what you do with the cheese after it becomes yours. In the case of DL (or any airline), when you buy a ticket you are agreeing to the contract of carriage governing that ticket and it is legally enforceable against you. Breaching a contract isn't necessarily unethical, but agreeing to it with the intent of breaching it is unethical. If DL finds out they are legally entitled to charge OP's credit card for the fare difference and/or revoke his SM account and all miles in it and he has zero recourse. I've never seen a thread on FT where that happened, but I will laugh my butt off the day it does.
DL does plenty of things bass ackward and I criticize them plenty for those things but that doesn't make it right to cheat them out of revenue.
Not to mention, in the case of the grocery you aren't signing a contract regarding what you do with the cheese after it becomes yours. In the case of DL (or any airline), when you buy a ticket you are agreeing to the contract of carriage governing that ticket and it is legally enforceable against you. Breaching a contract isn't necessarily unethical, but agreeing to it with the intent of breaching it is unethical. If DL finds out they are legally entitled to charge OP's credit card for the fare difference and/or revoke his SM account and all miles in it and he has zero recourse. I've never seen a thread on FT where that happened, but I will laugh my butt off the day it does.
DL does plenty of things bass ackward and I criticize them plenty for those things but that doesn't make it right to cheat them out of revenue.
To take this a step further, assuming the ticket A-B-C cost $150, I'll lose the entire value of the ticket if I cannot make the trip and don't fly. What if the flight A-B cost $300? DL isn't going to say well seeing as you didn't fly B-C we are going to invoke whatever parts of the CofC that we can and refare the A-B part or take away your SM account. So why is it different if I don't fly the entire ticket than if I fly part of the ticket?
I know the answer is because that's what I agreed to when I purchased the ticket and I also understand that DL can enforce the CofC if they choose to do so. My point is simply that the milk+cheese analogy isn't that bad of an analogy. I see this most often when Coke or Pepsi is on sale at the store. $3.99/12 pack but 4 for $10. Why in the world would I ever buy 3 12-packs even if I only intended to drink 3 of them. Heck, I could even tell the grocery store to charge me for 4 but I'm only taking home 3 and feel free to resell the 4th one.
Aug 12, 2012, 2:17 pm
#311
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Respectfully disagree with you. I think blug's analogy is closer. Buying A-B-C I have relieved DL of it's B-C inventory and there's no need for them to sell it again. Whether I fly it or not, they expected me to so had no intention of selling it again. DL does receive income for the B-C segment as that's what was purchased in the A-B-C ticket. If I cannot cancel the ticket they get the income whether I fly A-B or A-B-C. They just may not be able to double dip and resell the B-C.
To take this a step further, assuming the ticket A-B-C cost $150, I'll lose the entire value of the ticket if I cannot make the trip and don't fly. What if the flight A-B cost $300? DL isn't going to say well seeing as you didn't fly B-C we are going to invoke whatever parts of the CofC that we can and refare the A-B part or take away your SM account. So why is it different if I don't fly the entire ticket than if I fly part of the ticket?
I know the answer is because that's what I agreed to when I purchased the ticket and I also understand that DL can enforce the CofC if they choose to do so. My point is simply that the milk+cheese analogy isn't that bad of an analogy. I see this most often when Coke or Pepsi is on sale at the store. $3.99/12 pack but 4 for $10. Why in the world would I ever buy 3 12-packs even if I only intended to drink 3 of them. Heck, I could even tell the grocery store to charge me for 4 but I'm only taking home 3 and feel free to resell the 4th one.
To take this a step further, assuming the ticket A-B-C cost $150, I'll lose the entire value of the ticket if I cannot make the trip and don't fly. What if the flight A-B cost $300? DL isn't going to say well seeing as you didn't fly B-C we are going to invoke whatever parts of the CofC that we can and refare the A-B part or take away your SM account. So why is it different if I don't fly the entire ticket than if I fly part of the ticket?
I know the answer is because that's what I agreed to when I purchased the ticket and I also understand that DL can enforce the CofC if they choose to do so. My point is simply that the milk+cheese analogy isn't that bad of an analogy. I see this most often when Coke or Pepsi is on sale at the store. $3.99/12 pack but 4 for $10. Why in the world would I ever buy 3 12-packs even if I only intended to drink 3 of them. Heck, I could even tell the grocery store to charge me for 4 but I'm only taking home 3 and feel free to resell the 4th one.
Aug 12, 2012, 2:30 pm
#312
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I've done this before (certainly not often) and yes, I did get SM credit for the segment I actually flew.
Aug 30, 2012, 10:56 am
#313
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Hidden City (throwaway) Ticketing: Cheaper Price AND Higher Fare Class
I am looking at some upcoming flights, and I am noticing a pattern where the return flight of a roundtrip into ATL is pricing as a Q fare. However, adding a segment to GSP (XXX-ATL-GSP) lowers the price by over $100, plus raises the fare to an H on BOTH segments (giving better upgrade odds, if such a thing exists for a GM).
I actually could fly to/from GSP instead of ATL, as it is only about 30 minutes further from my house, and I do not park a car at the airport. I get that not flying the last segment is frowned upon, but to fly that segment adds a 2 hour layover, a 1 hour flight, plus 30 extra minutes of driving to my trip home.
Why does Delta want me to choose between a cheaper, higher fare class ticket and spending an extra 4 hours at home while throwing away the last segment of this trip? Something just isn't right here.
I actually could fly to/from GSP instead of ATL, as it is only about 30 minutes further from my house, and I do not park a car at the airport. I get that not flying the last segment is frowned upon, but to fly that segment adds a 2 hour layover, a 1 hour flight, plus 30 extra minutes of driving to my trip home.
Why does Delta want me to choose between a cheaper, higher fare class ticket and spending an extra 4 hours at home while throwing away the last segment of this trip? Something just isn't right here.
Last edited by dcline414; Aug 30, 2012 at 11:04 am Reason: corrected gramatical error
Aug 30, 2012, 11:04 am
#314
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I am looking at some upcoming flights, and I am noticing a pattern where the return flight of a roundtrip into ATL is pricing as a Q fare. However, adding a segment to GSP (XXX-ATL-GSP) lowers the price by over $100, plus raises the fare to an H on BOTH segments (giving better upgrade odds, if such a thing exists for a GM).
I actually could fly to/from GSP instead of ATL, as it is only about 30 minutes further from my house, and I do not park a car at the airport. I get that not flying the last segment is frowned upon, but to fly that segment adds a 2 hour layover, a 1 hour flight, plus 30 extra minutes driving to my trip home.
Why does Delta want me to choose between a cheaper, higher fare class ticket or spending an extra 4 hours at home and throwing away the last segment of this trip? Something just isn't right here.
I actually could fly to/from GSP instead of ATL, as it is only about 30 minutes further from my house, and I do not park a car at the airport. I get that not flying the last segment is frowned upon, but to fly that segment adds a 2 hour layover, a 1 hour flight, plus 30 extra minutes driving to my trip home.
Why does Delta want me to choose between a cheaper, higher fare class ticket or spending an extra 4 hours at home and throwing away the last segment of this trip? Something just isn't right here.
Aug 30, 2012, 11:10 am
#315
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Because people in one market are willing to spend more money than another market. If you were in charge and could charge more, wouldn't you?