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Delta to retire its entire Boeing 777 fleet by the end of the year

Delta to retire its entire Boeing 777 fleet by the end of the year

Old May 14, 20, 2:03 pm
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Duke787 View Post
Is the D1 seat on the the 777 exactly the same as the A359 and/or the A339? Aka will they be able to simply rip out those seats and put them into new A359/A339 deliveries with minimal tweaks or will they have to write those seats off entirely.

I assume the refurbished Y / C+ and the new PS seats can be fairly easily re-deployed to other parts of the fleet (or fitted to new planes instead of buying net new seats for those deliveries).
The D1 seat on the 777 is wider than on the A350 given the wider cabin on the 777. I doubt they would fit correctly however it may be possible, I'm not sure how tweakable they are.
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Old May 14, 20, 2:09 pm
  #107  
 
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Originally Posted by ChurnieEls View Post
Anyone able to speak to the economics of the 788 in more depth? Or have something I could read through?

Have seen it mentioned a few times in here that the economics are poor.
I wouldn't say the economics are poor. The 787 was optimized for the 787-9, so it's a bit heavier on a per seat basis.

If you need a plane that goes far and seats about 250 people, then I doubt you'll find a better plane based on the costs (after purchase price). But, if you think you can fill the extra seats that a 787-9 provides, then you won't be paying much more for that.
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Old May 14, 20, 2:09 pm
  #108  
 
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Originally Posted by jrl767 View Post
this decision was NOT about passenger experiences, it was ALL about economics
Clearly, and probably a wise one (though there are lots of questions about the SYD/BOM/JNB routes). That being said, I'm really hoping they retrofit the A350s with C+ sometime soon if they'll be replacing all of the 777 routes. That's a nice selling point and something I'll miss about the retrofitted 777.
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Old May 14, 20, 2:16 pm
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Are the 777s leased or owned?
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Old May 14, 20, 2:21 pm
  #110  
 
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Originally Posted by ChurnieEls View Post
Anyone able to speak to the economics of the 788 in more depth? Or have something I could read through?

Have seen it mentioned a few times in here that the economics are poor.
The issue is that it is just the smallest variant relative to its frame. It's the same reason why an A319 has bad economics relative to an A321.

The 789 carries 15% more passengers for only 7% more OEW
The 78J carries 33% more passengers for only 13% more OEW.

Translating this into actual numbers - what it means in practice is that the 90 extra seats on the 78J each cost only 35-40% of what a seat costs on a 788 in terms of fuel consumption.

The bigger planes cost a lot more from a list cost perspective, but that is not a reflection of their build price. The marginal cost to build a 78J is pretty much the same as a 788: all the expensive stuff is on both, the only difference is adding a few extra frames to the length and a select number of components slightly strengthened. The engines are all built to the same spec, just de-rated. In short, the gross margin percentage at list for Boeing is much greater for the large frame than the small frame. And a large buyer like Delta can leverage this fact in negotiations and buy the big plane for only a fractionally higher price than the small plane.

In other words, you're paying a lot for the smaller cabin. All in, the per trip costs may be 6-7% less on a 788 than a 789. Which means that there is a very thin range of routes and demand profiles where the 788 makes sense but the 789 doesn't.

Another poster brought up the American purchase. They did indeed say they will buy some more 788s, but my guess is that a lot of those will convert to 789s by the time they deliver. And, for them, some 788s make sense: they had the 767 replacement problem just like Delta. The difference is that Delta doesn't have 789s, so if they are buying the 788 as a 767 replacement, they are not getting fleet commonality benefits either. Delta would likely cut the 5 routes that they really can't make work with a A330neo before introducing an entirely new fleet type to the equation.

Again, all of this is speculative and subject to commercial deal economics. If Boeing came to Delta and said, hey, I'll give you 788s for $10M each to replace the 767s (obviously an extreme exaggeration), Delta would say "sure - we'll take them." The issue is that the 788 costs more to produce than the A339. So, as a general statement, Airbus is always going to be able to undercut Boeing. So Boeing would need to be desperate to fill their production line and Airbus having a full production line before Boeing would likely offer Delta a deal they can't refuse.
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Old May 14, 20, 2:27 pm
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Originally Posted by ab2013 View Post
Are the 777s leased or owned?
I read in an article when all of this started the 777s were owned.

The article speculated the 777s might go because they were owned. I guess this is because they would still have to pay the lease on a leased airplane if they parked it.
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Old May 14, 20, 2:31 pm
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Originally Posted by kjnangre View Post
Ummm, I think the CEOs were already aware of the very real possibility of bankruptcy. I don't think this came as news to them. I don't think he was trashing anybody; nobody planned this, everyone in the industry is trying to figure it out. And yes, some companies are likely to fail. I don't think the CEOs are as sensitive as you are.
Frankly Im sure the CEOs welcomed it as part of the lobbying effort for more bailout money post September given the good relationship between Boeing and the administration
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Old May 14, 20, 3:25 pm
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Truly sad news. I remember when the 777s first came online and some of the issues at the time because there were so few. As I recall, there were also issues because 777 captains were paid significantly more. It was a great aircraft and now that its gone, I guess DL is reduced to short- and medium-haul routes. East Coast to Western Europe and West Coast to Seoul (I assume the A330s/350s can handle LAX/ICN?) I guess deltas writing off Eastern Europe, Africa, China, Asia?
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Old May 14, 20, 3:37 pm
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Originally Posted by jimrpa View Post
Truly sad news. I remember when the 777s first came online and some of the issues at the time because there were so few. As I recall, there were also issues because 777 captains were paid significantly more. It was a great aircraft and now that it’s gone, I guess DL is reduced to short- and medium-haul routes. East Coast to Western Europe and West Coast to Seoul (I assume the A330s/350s can handle LAX/ICN?) I guess delta’s writing off Eastern Europe, Africa, China, Asia?
Ummm, DL's A350 can handle every route in the network except for JNB. China, Australia, West Coast to Europe, are all fine (and my personal guess is they'll buy a few A350ULRs which can reach JNB)
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Old May 14, 20, 3:44 pm
  #115  
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Originally Posted by kjnangre View Post
Ummm, DL's A350 can handle every route in the network except for JNB. China, Australia, West Coast to Europe, are all fine (and my personal guess is they'll buy a few A350ULRs which can reach JNB)
The 350 can handle it but even the 350ULR it is not as capable as the 77L. It's been discussed at quite length on both airliners.net and on the airline pilot boards. The 77L is a payload beast. No restrictions. The A350 will be limited by alternate airports on LAX-SYD and will have to be payload optimized. Singapore had to limit their A350ULR to just 160 seats. It's certainly not any competition to the 77L. But Delta has decided they don't need that capability anymore so that's that.
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Old May 14, 20, 3:51 pm
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If this is true, than its was a no brainer for DL to dump the 777s now. I still believe that if COVID-19 hadnt happened, the 777s would have probably be retired 5 years from now anyway as the ERs would be approaching 25-26 years old by that point.
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Old May 14, 20, 3:55 pm
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Aviation like cruising and the whole touristy business will never be the same again

Didn't I read that Delta is going to have 7000 excessive pilots, what about all the FA too, OMG
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Old May 14, 20, 4:00 pm
  #118  
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Originally Posted by kjnangre View Post
No. Replacing inefficient planes with efficient ones, getting rid of oddball small fleets (777 is the smallest fleet at DL) and consolidating onto a few larger fleets, is the whole point.
But ultimately heading toward only 350s and 339s for long-haul seems to be over-consolidating. I would have to think the maintenance/simplicity benefits are not enough to outweigh the lack of flexibility -- you'd end up with too many routes where you're using either too small a plane or too big a plane, and that's obviously sub-optimal for profitability also. The 350/339 have 306/281 seats, The 763 is much smaller at 208-226 and the 764 is going to 238. Even with the 767s in the fleet arguably there's a big gap in that ~240-280 seat size, and losing the 767s means you don't have anything for thinner routes when the demand returns. Hmm.
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Old May 14, 20, 4:04 pm
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Originally Posted by chipmaster View Post
Didn't I read that Delta is going to have 7000 excessive pilots, what about all the FA too, OMG
They are going to have 7000 excess pilots this fall but that does not mean they will furlough 7000. They have to plan for peak season headcount, so looking at Q3 2021, they expect to have about 2500-3000 excess pilots; thats the number that will likely be furloughed come October.
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Old May 14, 20, 4:09 pm
  #120  
 
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Originally Posted by ijgordon View Post
But ultimately heading toward only 350s and 339s for long-haul seems to be over-consolidating. I would have to think the maintenance/simplicity benefits are not enough to outweigh the lack of flexibility -- you'd end up with too many routes where you're using either too small a plane or too big a plane, and that's obviously sub-optimal for profitability also. The 350/339 have 306/281 seats, The 763 is much smaller at 208-226 and the 764 is going to 238. Even with the 767s in the fleet arguably there's a big gap in that ~240-280 seat size, and losing the 767s means you don't have anything for thinner routes when the demand returns. Hmm.
I think DL has made it very clear that they want a smaller inter-continental jet and they've openly asked the aircraft manufacturers to build something. DL doesn't built its own jets. In the meantime, the 767 is likely to stay in the fleet
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