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-   -   Delta exiting NRT, ending NRT-SIN and moving MNL flight to ICN (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-air-lines-skymiles/1981092-delta-exiting-nrt-ending-nrt-sin-moving-mnl-flight-icn.html)

LexPassenger Aug 1, 2019 9:10 pm

Old time poster, recent lurker here.
Lots of folks don't seem to understand what a sterilized joint venture is. It's when airlines are granted immunity from antitrust laws to cooperate on route planning, pricing, marketing, sharing expenses and profits (or losses). They decide everything together.

From DOT-OST-2002-11842: "The scope of the Joint Venture covers non-stop routes between the United States and Asia and connecting beyond and behind segments operated by the two airlines and their affiliated carriers within the United States and Asia. For purposes of the JV Agreement, the United States includes the United States of America (including the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico, but not including any other U.S. territories), and Asia includes Cambodia, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Laos, Macao, Malaysia, Mongolia, Myanmar, Philippines, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, and Vietnam. The JV Agreement provides for joint network and capacity planning, coordination to improve schedules and enhanced connectivity, reciprocal codesharing, joint pricing and revenue management, joint sales activities, reciprocal frequent flyer program participation and reciprocal elite tier benefits, and belly cargo cooperation. The JV Agreement covers all scheduled passenger air transportation services (including scheduled charter services) and belly cargo services operated by the two airlines and their affiliated carriers, but does not cover cargo-only flights."

Korean is just as involved in these decisions as Delta. They are making them together. They are relying partly on Korean's vast knowledge of the Asian market. I expect the timing has to do with a reasonable belief the Haneda rights are coming through and slots arranged. Remember, Korean is a financial partner in the Haneda flights to the US. Korean gives Delta 8 new airplane destinations in Japan. Also,through Korean, Delta mantains flights HNL-NRT.

Finally, for those of you believing Delta is steering its Asian service away from its own metal, each airline has 16 transPac flights daily in the joint venture this summer, and one of Korean's is to Guam. Since Korean's planes on average are larger, they provide more trans-Pac seats in the JV, but Delta provides many more US seats (290 destinations) than Korean does Asian (80 destinations). Also, Delta's six PRC flights are not in the JV, so are additive to Delta's JV service.

I hope this is useful info for some of you. Remember, stupid is forever but ignorance can be fixed.

Akiestar Aug 1, 2019 10:11 pm


Originally Posted by lsquare (Post 31368985)
Sorry, I know it's a dumb question, but under which scenario will there will be sterile transit? My example obviously didn't fit.

As mentioned by @moondog, @TerryK and others earlier on in the thread, sterile transit happens when transiting between two international flights.

lsquare Aug 1, 2019 10:20 pm


Originally Posted by Akiestar (Post 31369429)
As mentioned by @moondog, @TerryK and others earlier on in the thread, sterile transit happens when transiting between two international flights.

I'm terribly sorry, I really don't know what I was on. I was really confused. So I read one of the posts above again, and unless I'm mistaken the passport is checked by airline staff, but I still have to go through security. I think I got confused because I was assuming that I can just walk to the next gate without going through security and fly to my next location, such as YVR-PVG-HKG since HKG is considered to be international.

uastarflyer Aug 1, 2019 11:43 pm

With WN’s announcement of abandoning EWR and now this, UA is having a great week.

browan04 Aug 2, 2019 12:14 am

Anyone know when the schedule will be finalized for the DL HND flights? It’s less than a year away from the 2020 Tokyo Olympics Opening Ceremony now.

davidlhanson Aug 2, 2019 3:04 am


Originally Posted by WWads (Post 31366755)
Do not let DL force you onto a ...... mainland China connection. It's either ICN or rebook on another airline.

That's what we have booked for October. TPA-ATL-PVG-BKK with BKK-ICN-ATL-TPA on return. I wanted Delta metal and to see if China Eastern was acceptable for regional flights.

bpe Aug 2, 2019 3:38 am


Originally Posted by lsquare (Post 31369448)
I'm terribly sorry, I really don't know what I was on. I was really confused. So I read one of the posts above again, and unless I'm mistaken the passport is checked by airline staff, but I still have to go through security. I think I got confused because I was assuming that I can just walk to the next gate without going through security and fly to my next location, such as YVR-PVG-HKG since HKG is considered to be international.

If they just look at your passport without stamping it then it counts as sterile international-international transit.

If you fill out the arrival card and they stamp your passport (and the same when leaving), then it does not count. It used to be that in China everyone had to do this, but now China Eastern - China Eastern connections in Shanghai and maybe other combinations do not have to.


Originally Posted by travelinmanS (Post 31369105)


MU and KE are about equal in terms of comfort in my mind. If a connection is better timed through PVG then I don’t see why you should turn it down. Transiting in Shanghai MU to DL is not difficult.


Originally Posted by davidlhanson (Post 31369902)
That's what we have booked for October. TPA-ATL-PVG-BKK with BKK-ICN-ATL-TPA on return. I wanted Delta metal and to see if China Eastern was acceptable for regional flights.

IME inflight comfort, food, etc. of MU is fine, as is the food, shopping, and amenities in PVG. However, I would be much more concerned with the likelihood of delays due to Chinese ATC, as well as treatment during IRROPS (compared to NRT/HND/ICN, although it may be better now than a few years ago).

JakeRobertson212 Aug 2, 2019 4:01 am


Originally Posted by davidlhanson (Post 31369902)
That's what we have booked for October. TPA-ATL-PVG-BKK with BKK-ICN-ATL-TPA on return. I wanted Delta metal and to see if China Eastern was acceptable for regional flights.

I fly MU 3-4x a year and have always been pleased. Just go in with the right mindset that they’re not SQ by any means and you’ll enjoy their flights. Plus, last I checked they were flying their new A330-300’s on PVG-BKK with their newest cabins. Not sure if you’re in J but if you are they’re 1-2-1 config and very comfortable!

One last thing to mention - you say your flights are in October and PVG is opening a gorgeous new terminal called S1 (satellite 1) which will erase the need for so much bussing like they do now.

https://www.shine.cn/news/metro/1904042470/

dcadwell Aug 2, 2019 4:58 am

I found what I consider to be a reasonable re-route on the return (effectively doing the same I'm doing outbound, just in reverse) and am hoping that they'll be able to re-book me on it. Really don't want to miss the F1 race...

Akiestar Aug 2, 2019 8:52 am


Originally Posted by browan04 (Post 31369644)
Anyone know when the schedule will be finalized for the DL HND flights? It’s less than a year away from the 2020 Tokyo Olympics Opening Ceremony now.

If PR's timetables are any indication, they switch over to a summer schedule on March 31st. That's probably when DL is going to switch entirely, but as for individual flights, we shall see.

kop84 Aug 2, 2019 11:26 am


Originally Posted by lsquare (Post 31367955)
From the carrier's perspective, this is bad, but isn't this actually a good thing for the rest of us? Lower fares whether it's in Y or J.

Of course lower fares are better for all of us. But I was explaining why it was likely DL was pulling out of SIN. For many Asian Carriers serving the US is a point of pride in their network.
DL axed JFK/NRT, all flights to HKG, DXB, BKK, ROA, SPN, GUM, and probably some others that I'm forgetting because they weren't making money.

DL has shown time and time again, that they're not interested in vanity routes. Just routes that make money.

kevincrumbs Aug 2, 2019 11:37 am


Originally Posted by hikouki (Post 31369205)
I live in Oregon. Many of my friends live in Portland or drive hours to PDX and fly from there to NRT and connect to Asia. As for me, I have done xxx-SEA-NRT-Asia. Both the PDX/SEA-NRT legs are quite short compared to others and makes flying, whether on Y or D1 much more manageable. I thoroughly enjoyed flying the short 8 hour run from NRT-SEA.

HND-SEA is still a short eight hour run ;)

I live here too but I don't understand why you think switching from NRT to HND will severely impact connections since there were few ST flights from NRT to other points in Asia. All ST airlines that fly to NRT also fly to HND.

NRT - XXX not available for HND - XXX
CI: KHH/TPE (TPE replaced by TSA, which is superior)
GA: DPS
KE: CJU/PUS
MU: NKG/PEK/XIY
VN: DAD/SGN

So, a few minor markets? PEK's the biggest one but DL would rather route you onto PDX - SEA - PEK


(I do wonder, with PDX losing is one-stop Asia connection, will other Asian carriers come to PDX?)
I think KE is a possibility down the road. If DL ever pulls out of PDX - HND, I would imagine that JL would pick up PDX - NRT. If not for parent company HNA's precarious financial situation, I would've thought that a HU PDX - PEK flight would exist by now.

BenA Aug 2, 2019 11:39 am


Originally Posted by kop84 (Post 31371473)
Of course lower fares are better for all of us. But I was explaining why it was likely DL was pulling out of SIN. For many Asian Carriers serving the US is a point of pride in their network.
DL axed JFK/NRT, all flights to HKG, DXB, BKK, ROA, SPN, GUM, and probably some others that I'm forgetting because they weren't making money.

DL has shown time and time again, that they're not interested in vanity routes. Just routes that make money.

I never knew there was service from NRT-Roanoke, Virginia! I've heard of long and thin routes, but that really takes the cake :)

(I'm sure ROR was the intended airport code here, just couldn't resist)

kop84 Aug 2, 2019 12:03 pm


Originally Posted by BenA (Post 31371539)
I never knew there was service from NRT-Roanoke, Virginia! I've heard of long and thin routes, but that really takes the cake :)

(I'm sure ROR was the intended airport code here, just couldn't resist)

Huge route, they ran the Concord on a wet lease from AF on that for a while...surprised you didn't know that ;)

Apparently it's already 5PM!

Tanaka07 Aug 2, 2019 12:32 pm


Originally Posted by kevincrumbs (Post 31371533)
HND-SEA is still a short eight hour run ;)

I live here too but I don't understand why you think switching from NRT to HND will severely impact connections since there were few ST flights from NRT to other points in Asia. All ST airlines that fly to NRT also fly to HND.

NRT - XXX not available for HND - XXX
CI: KHH/TPE (TPE replaced by TSA, which is superior)
GA: DPS
KE: CJU/PUS
MU: NKG/PEK/XIY
VN: DAD/SGN

So, a few minor markets? PEK's the biggest one but DL would rather route you onto PDX - SEA - PEK



I think KE is a possibility down the road. If DL ever pulls out of PDX - HND, I would imagine that JL would pick up PDX - NRT. If not for parent company HNA's precarious financial situation, I would've thought that a HU PDX - PEK flight would exist by now.

I think we will see DL enter the PDX-ICN market with an A332. PDX-HND is scheduled to be a daily A332. DL should be rotating this frame through another city from PDX as well (I dont think they'd run a domestic A332 flight from PDX).

PDX-LHR is going daily 764 next year.
PDX-AMS is currently scheduled to be daily A333.
PDX-HND was announced that it will be operated by a standard A332(the only standard A332 operating from HND).

PDX-HND-PDX-ICN-SEA?

I feel DL will be announcing something additional at PDX to be able to rotate this A332 out. Could it be ICN? It could also be CDG, which has been rumored for some time.


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