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Delta returns to London Gatwick - its first trans-Atlantic destination

Delta returns to London Gatwick - its first trans-Atlantic destination

Old Apr 4, 19, 4:53 pm
  #16  
 
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If I'm getting sub-$1000 per leg Mint fares to Europe, I'll be happy as a clam. I don't think B6 will be in any kind of position of strength but if they suck the average J fare down by $1000-1200 I think it'll benefit all of us.
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Old Apr 4, 19, 4:56 pm
  #17  
 
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But I guess the $64,000 question...who is going to be operating these flights? Delta, or Virgin Atlantic?
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Old Apr 4, 19, 6:07 pm
  #18  
 
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Originally Posted by Silver Meteor View Post
But I guess the $64,000 question...who is going to be operating these flights? Delta, or Virgin Atlantic?
Looks like Delta with the new B764's D1 suites
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Old Apr 4, 19, 6:26 pm
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by hi55us View Post
Time for Delta to offer comp J upgrades TATL out of Boston! That would knock out B6!
That would accomplish nothing. The moment B6 gave up, your comp upgrades would be long gone.

I look forward to this because just like in the transcontinental market, B6 will be able to offer a comparable or better product at a lower price. Anything that weighs on the US3 is a good thing. AA/DL/UA are in too anticompetitive of a market and have it far too easy to provide high quality, competitive products.
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Old Apr 4, 19, 8:03 pm
  #20  
 
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I remember flying CVG-LGW in a DL L-1011 in January of, I think, 1989. It was early in January and the outbound (for me) flight had a lot of British passengers returning from Florida who had been rerouted from flights via ATL. Many seemed to be dressed in beach wear and were shivering in cold Ohio. On the return flight a week later, also an L-1011, there were only six passengers in all of Y. These were my only flights ever in a TriStar.
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Old Apr 4, 19, 8:47 pm
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by 3Cforme View Post
That just assumes you want to connect in London vs. Paris, Amsterdam or Rome - or aren't already on a non-stop to KEF, GLA, EDI, DUB, SNN, MAN, CPH, TXL, DUS, BRU, FRA, PRG, ZRH, VCE, MXP, NCE, MAD, BCN, LIS, AGP, or ATH.
Well, most of those aren't non-stops unless you're originating in JFK or ATL. And of course there are dozens or hundreds of secondary cities that require connecting via AMS or CDG. A B6-U2 partnership at LGW (for example, no idea if this would actually happen) would offer onward connections to almost 100 destinations with about the same convenience as XXX-AMS/CDG-YYY. ie: Mostly competitive to the route structure DL currently offers.

You caught the press release references to DL being the #1 TATL carrier all in destinations, U.S. gateways, city pairs and customers carried, right? B6 will not be operating from a position of strength TATL, not from JFK or BOS. They're not going to have the network, the fleet diversity, nor the corporate contracts. They certainly don't have the operational chops: look at on-time and flight cancellation data.
I don't disagree with any of these points, and yet they successfully introduced Mint which at the time would have been subject to most of the items you list. The TATL market is ready for disruption in favor of the "premium leisure" segment, which is pretty much what B6 has said they're after. Premium Leisure doesn't care about fleet diversity, doesn't have corporate contracts, is somewhat less sensitive to OTP, and will jump all over $2k J fares (the current price for W fares) even if the intra-EU segment is on a carrier like U2. (I mean, look at short haul J on any EU carrier and tell me it's light years better than an exit row seat on U2 with a comped snack.)
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Old Apr 4, 19, 9:17 pm
  #22  
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Originally Posted by SFTNYC View Post
Did I miss where it said DL would be operating the flights? Or just that the JV (i.e. either VS or DL, to be determined later) will be operating the routes? Though my bet is both of these flights end up as 26J 767s (if not 757s)
Yes, they did. They tried BOS-LGW from June 2001 to June 2002. This route has been discontinued. Due to low demand.
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Old Apr 4, 19, 9:57 pm
  #23  
 
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Originally Posted by Lomapaseo View Post
Looks like Delta with the new B764's D1 suites
You mean the door less non suites?
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Old Apr 5, 19, 7:15 am
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by bennos View Post
I think there's a better chance of B6 operating JFK-SYD on their own metal than DL offering comp J upgrades.



Eh, I'm pretty sure B6 planned for some reaction from the legacy carriers. TCON Mint has certainly stuck around, notwithstanding the major's ability to redeploy product on those routes. Furthermore, if (as rumored) B6 offers onward connectivity from LON into Europe somehow, they'll be a step ahead of DL/VS, which still doesn't have a good connectivity solution on the European side.
Even if B6 can somehow pry 6 slots for just JFK, for MINT that 6 x 16 = 96 seats.
AA/BA run x12 747 and 777's
DL/VS run x8 A330 and A340
UA (from EWR) runs x5 767
Plus the VS and BA flights from EWR
All in, it's roughly 1,100 lie flat seats (or better)

B6 tossing a few narrow bodies out there isn't going to be the same type of game changer that it was for the domestic market. And I'm highly skeptical of how much traction B6 will get with ownard connections from LHR. BA already covers more than B6 can dream of, and on top of that from NYC and BOS you can get nearly anywhere in Europe Non-stop already.

This seems like a cute idea from B6, but I bet they would ultimately do much better BOS to EDI/DUB. A narrow body there probably has an advantage and isn't nearly as expensive to fly to for the airline. LHR taxes and fee's are crazy which will mute a lot of B6's ability to undercut DL/VS and AA/BA.
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Old Apr 5, 19, 7:33 am
  #25  
 
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THis is interesting given how Delta's been trying to get out of NRT for a long time and has been using LGW's lack of desirability as a parallel in DOT slot application filings.
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Old Apr 5, 19, 7:44 am
  #26  
 
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Originally Posted by FireEmblemPride View Post
THis is interesting given how Delta's been trying to get out of NRT for a long time and has been using LGW's lack of desirability as a parallel in DOT slot application filings.
There are some parallels but I'd say the biggest difference is at LHR, you can buy slots from other carriers...it's just that B6 doesn't want to pay up. HND US carriers are not allowed to purchase any additional slots. Also LHR and LGW are 20 and 26 miles from the city center respectively. HND and NRT are 8 and 37 miles respectively from the city center.
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Old Apr 5, 19, 8:49 am
  #27  
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Originally Posted by bennos View Post
Furthermore, if (as rumored) B6 offers onward connectivity from LON into Europe somehow, they'll be a step ahead of DL/VS, which still doesn't have a good connectivity solution on the European side.
VS interlines with BA, though it's not particularly easy to buy a ticket, you have to call VS or use a TA (some OTAs might be able to book). I did JFK-LHR-GVA on VS/BA recently. It's also not the most seamless experience, you have to effectively manage the reservations separately (e.g., for seat assignments) and OLCI doesn't work well.
But of course connecting via CDG/AMS on AF/KL can get you to at least as many places.
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Old Apr 5, 19, 9:11 am
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by cmd320 View Post
That would accomplish nothing. The moment B6 gave up, your comp upgrades would be long gone.

I look forward to this because just like in the transcontinental market, B6 will be able to offer a comparable or better product at a lower price. Anything that weighs on the US3 is a good thing. AA/DL/UA are in too anticompetitive of a market and have it far too easy to provide high quality, competitive products.
The A321 NEO has slightly less range than a winglet equipped 757. They will have reliability issues in the winter flying to JFK and even to Boston on occasion.
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Old Apr 5, 19, 9:32 am
  #29  
 
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Originally Posted by kop84 View Post
Even if B6 can somehow pry 6 slots for just JFK, for MINT that 6 x 16 = 96 seats.
AA/BA run x12 747 and 777's
DL/VS run x8 A330 and A340
UA (from EWR) runs x5 767
Plus the VS and BA flights from EWR
All in, it's roughly 1,100 lie flat seats (or better)

B6 tossing a few narrow bodies out there isn't going to be the same type of game changer that it was for the domestic market.
I think the rumors are the B6 would head to LGW, not LHR, where (especially if they have a UK partner) it would be at least somewhat easier to get slots. The rumors also suggest a somewhat different configuration (more J seats? hints of a W cabin), though overall of course they'd start out smaller than AA/BA or DL/VS (though not much smaller than UA without a JV partner). But by going after Premium Leisure out of LGW they're aiming for a different segment than Business Travelers into LHR (which tbh isn't really more convenient than LGW, depending on your destination), plus presumably support for their corporate contracts out of the northeast.

It's enough to get traction and it's enough to change pricing dynamics. (Remember when B6 effectively killed Saturday night stay requirements in the US domestic market? They were a lot smaller back then than they are now. Remember when B6 introduced $600 fares to the premium TCON market? Mint was a lot smaller back then than it was now.)

And I'm highly skeptical of how much traction B6 will get with ownard connections from LHR. BA already covers more than B6 can dream of, and on top of that from NYC and BOS you can get nearly anywhere in Europe Non-stop already.
Onward connections will depend on whether or not they get a UK partner airline. The "non-stop" argument is a bit of a red herring, most TATL itineraries already require a connection on one or both ends, excepting of course top markets like NYC-LON.

This seems like a cute idea from B6, but I bet they would ultimately do much better BOS to EDI/DUB. A narrow body there probably has an advantage and isn't nearly as expensive to fly to for the airline.
I suspect B6, like the legacies, will be a lot better off if they can get feed on both ends rather than very specific point to point operations, but I'm just armchair CEO'ing.
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Old Apr 5, 19, 11:00 am
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff767 View Post
The A321 NEO has slightly less range than a winglet equipped 757. They will have reliability issues in the winter flying to JFK and even to Boston on occasion.
The NEO LR should be fine. B6 has options for these.
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