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Old Dec 29, 2018, 11:39 am
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Zurick
I think the justice dept (ie courts) is the final arbiter. However as defined below an "emotional support animal" or "pysch service dog" to be labeled a service dog by the ACAA must be trained. And unlike the ADA rules, the airline can apparently ask where and what and request documentation of what the training was. This will eliminate

Under the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) a service animal is any animal that is individually trained to provide assistance to a person with a disability.. Documentation may be required of passengers needing to travel with an emotional support or psychiatric service animal.

This is going to make it much harder for folks with legitimate ESAs and hopefully eliminate the pets. By their new rules, for an ESA/psych service animal, American will now require the paper work > 48 hours and they will call the doc and then they will decide if true need. Also the 8 hour maximum flight eliminates a lot of international (ef ATL to Paris is 8 hours and 15 min)
The courts are of course the final arbiter. However in the US while DOJ is in charge of enforcing lots of laws, and representing agencies in court, the enforcement of ACA is within
the purview of the DOT.

The rules as currently written already accoubt for flight over 8 hours. Also unless I'm mistaken there is no allowance that allows them a 48 hr advance nptice, or allows them to verify each one.
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Old Dec 29, 2018, 11:44 am
  #137  
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You are correct for a mental disability (I think that is how it is written). But it does not say that the airline cannot verify that and states that they can require verification. American is complying with the law by requiring the documentation 48 hours before so that they can verify. Then their discussion with the doc decides if it is a mental disability. "I miss my puppy" when I am away is not in the definition of mental disability. And the big block is "trained to support that disability"
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Old Dec 29, 2018, 12:06 pm
  #138  
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Originally Posted by Zurick
You are correct for a mental disability (I think that is how it is written). But it does not say that the airline cannot verify that and states that they can require verification. American is complying with the law by requiring the documentation 48 hours before so that they can verify. Then their discussion with the doc decides if it is a mental disability. "I miss my puppy" when I am away is not in the definition of mental disability. And the big block is "trained to support that disability"
What your suggesting goes way passed what they can do. At most they'll be able to ask is this a valid letter. They won't be able to go into the why's, etc...

Regardless, I thought they could only require verification if they had reason to doubt it was real.
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Old Dec 29, 2018, 12:33 pm
  #139  
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IMO every animal that isn't obviously being used by a blind person as a seeing eye dog gives me reason to doubt that any service animal or ESA claim is real, although I admit that some are much more obviously not real than others. Distrust and verify.
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Old Dec 29, 2018, 2:01 pm
  #140  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
IMO every animal that isn't obviously being used by a blind person as a seeing eye dog gives me reason to doubt that any service animal or ESA claim is real, although I admit that some are much more obviously not real than others. Distrust and verify.
MSP: you must be from Europe as that is the rule here. The dog has to be a seeing eye or hearing dog. But FlyingCo if you read American's rules for an ESA / PSA, they will call the doc to verify it meets "their" criteria. In my discussion with them (I have PTST from Viet Nam) - if you have diagnosed PTST with anxiety/depression/etc they will allow. If just "my puppy" they won't. Also gets the doc "off the hook" as if you read doc forums, must don't want to write ESA but are afraid if they don't patient will go elsewhere
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Old Dec 29, 2018, 2:33 pm
  #141  
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Not from Europe, I've just lived there at times. It's interesting that in many European countries, including France and Germany, it's always been common for people to take their pet dogs into even very good restaurants. In fact, I once witnessed a dog fight in the middle of dinner at a Michelin three star restaurant that catered to dogs by serving them Perrier in sterling silver bowls.

To me, the PTSD dogs, hearing assistance dogs, epilepsy/diabetes problem detection dogs, dogs that fetch items for people in wheelchairs, and even the miniature horses that provide stability and support for those who otherwise would have great difficulty walking are very very different from the garden variety untrained pets pretending (even with documentation) to be ESAs, yet often it isn't obvious that such genuine assistance animals are more than extremely well behaved pets. Few people would have pets if the pet didn't provide some measure of support and companionship and I suspect that most people arguably have some form of a mild psychological disorder as I've never heard of a therapist refusing to see someone on the grounds that the person doesn't need or wouldn't benefit somewhat from some therapy.
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Old Dec 29, 2018, 4:49 pm
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Zurick
MSP: you must be from Europe as that is the rule here. The dog has to be a seeing eye or hearing dog. But FlyingCo if you read American's rules for an ESA / PSA, they will call the doc to verify it meets "their" criteria. In my discussion with them (I have PTST from Viet Nam) - if you have diagnosed PTST with anxiety/depression/etc they will allow. If just "my puppy" they won't. Also gets the doc "off the hook" as if you read doc forums, must don't want to write ESA but are afraid if they don't patient will go elsewhere
From the DOT. DOT website on ESA/Service animals

What kind of documentation can be required of persons travelling with emotional support animals and psychiatric service animals?
  • Airlines may require documentation that is not older than one year from the date of your scheduled initial flight that states:
    • You have a mental or emotional disability that is recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM);
    • You need your emotional support or psychiatric support animal as an accommodation for air travel and/or for activity at your destination;
    • The individual providing the assessment is a licensed mental health professional and the passenger is under his/her professional care; and
    • The licensed health care professional’s;
      • Date and type of professional license; and
      • Jurisdiction or state in which their license was issued.

They don't get to talk to the doctor. All the letter must state is that you have a qualifying condition (not what it is), you need the animal, that you are under their care, and their legal license type/jurisdiction of issue. Anything more than that can't be required.
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Old Dec 29, 2018, 4:52 pm
  #143  
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.....and anyone can easily buy such documents over the internet, perhaps by answering a few questions online and/or having a quick phone call with some "licensed professional" specializing in this.
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Old Dec 29, 2018, 5:08 pm
  #144  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
garden variety untrained pets pretending (even with documentation) to be ESAs
This has been covered billions of times, but animals aren't "pretending to be ESAs." There's literally zero difference between a "fake ESA" and a real one because there isn't any qualification for the animal. The qualification (and documentation) is for the human, not the animal.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 6:04 am
  #145  
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Originally Posted by flyerCO
From the DOT. DOT website on ESA/Service animals

What kind of documentation can be required of persons travelling with emotional support animals and psychiatric service animals?
  • Airlines may require documentation that is not older than one year from the date of your scheduled initial flight that states:.
As noted above, you can "buy" the doc's letter online which is why AA verifies it with the doc's office. "Requiring documentation" does not state they can't question it and verify it which is why they require 48 hour notice
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 6:07 am
  #146  
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Originally Posted by flyerCO
From the DOT. DOT website on ESA/Service animals

They don't get to talk to the doctor. All the letter must state is that you have a qualifying condition (not what it is), you need the animal, that you are under their care, and their legal license type/jurisdiction of issue. Anything more than that can't be required.
ps I guess American's lawyers disagree with you

Advance notice required

To travel with an emotional support and psychiatric service animal in the cabin, you must contact the Special Assistance Desk with all required documentation at least 48 hours before your flight.Documentation validation will include American Airlines contacting your mental health professional
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?...earchpulse_net
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 6:26 am
  #147  
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Originally Posted by Zurick
ps I guess American's lawyers disagree with you

Advance notice required

To travel with an emotional support and psychiatric service animal in the cabin, you must contact the Special Assistance Desk with all required documentation at least 48 hours before your flight.Documentation validation will include American Airlines contacting your mental health professional
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?...earchpulse_net
No they're not disagreeing. Verification simply means contacting the doctors office and verifying the letter is real. It does NOT include discussing details. Notice nothing says they will discuss your needs or determine if they're valid. Doing so would mean they're substituting their opinion for your medical professionals. Not only would that be against ACA, it could get them into trouble for practicing medicine.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 7:52 am
  #148  
 
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
IMO every animal that isn't obviously being used by a blind person as a seeing eye dog gives me reason to doubt that any service animal or ESA claim is real, although I admit that some are much more obviously not real than others. Distrust and verify.

Why would you be entitled to know someone else's private health information?
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 11:42 am
  #149  
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Originally Posted by jdrtravel
Why would you be entitled to know someone else's private health information?
I'm not saying that I want to see anyone's private information, but if I see an animal on board, unless it's a seeing eye dog, the odds are that it's a fake ESA even though it might be wearing a (fake) service animal vest. I'll believe what I want about these animals, based on "preponderance of evidence" if you wish.
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Old Dec 30, 2018, 12:11 pm
  #150  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
I'll believe what I want about these animals, based on "preponderance of evidence" if you wish.[/left]
well fortunately for the people who need them, what you choose to believe doesn't matter
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