DCP2016

Not the biggest Boeing fan at the moment but until the 797 comes out there is definitely a whole in many airline's networks, including Delta, that can't be filled correctly by the current aircraft on the market. It can't come soon enough.

FlyTheFriendlyMonkey

Wouldn't the 797 make a lot of sense in capacity controlled airports such as JFK and LGA. There's not much room to grow there expect adding larger planes to existing routes, no? Also, airlines are currently looking for a lot of help from politicians (as we saw with the recent Qatar deal) and buying form Boeing certainly wouldn't hurt them in this regard.

ethernal

JFK maybe, certainly not at LGA. LGA has the 1500 mile flight limitations that would limit the value of a larger plane and also has runway limitations (7000 ft). Tons of tiny RJ fly into LGA; there is plenty of room to up-gauge if required without going to a 767-sized plane.

ethernal

I agree that the 767 makes some thinner routes viable at the margin that an A332 couldn't, but the person I replied to said it would only be viable hub-to-hub which is ridiculous. It's not an A380 or 748. A330 and 767 have similar CASM for flight distance in what is Delta's core market for these types of planes (TATL)*. In fact, Delta seems to treat them interchangeably on tons of routes. It seems like every TATL I book far enough in advance goes through at least one equipment change from a 76x to a 33x or vice versa... one even went 332 to a 763 then to a 333 over a 3 month period... (naturally managing to lose good seats at each iteration )

*edit: I'll add ex-JFK and DTW as those to Western Europe flight length is pretty short. But even there (esp. JFK), Delta often mixes their portfolio between 76x, A33x, and even 77x because the demand is there. From ATL, MSP, and SEA, the A33x works okay except for a few thinner routes on the margin.

readywhenyouare

ethernal

Fair enough, forget how much difference 80% empty fuel tanks make when it comes to taking off.

Still, point is that LGA is clearly not that slot constrained given the number of RJs that fly into LGA. LGA Is a commuter airport, so flight frequency matters. From Delta's core hub I'd rather have a A321 running hourly than a 797 running every 90 minutes. Which is what you see.. Delta keeps a near hourly LGA cadence and uses planes to match that capacity A321 vs A320 vs 737 depending on the time of day and day of week). Agree that there may be a few instances where a 797-type plane would work, but it would be the exception and not the rule.

3Cforme

That was the rationale for American to ask for the DC-10 fifty years ago.

http://www.nycaviation.com/2014/10/l...75-years/36431

As ethernal notes, there's plenty of room for Delta (on average) to upgauge at LGA. However, that doesn't help a route that already has a 757/321/739. It doesn't help routes where demand/avg price demands frequency. It doesn't help routes with a low price elasticity of demand where trying to fill extra seats (say, CR9 to 319) crashes average yields. Maybe Delta can upgauge a few routes that don't suffer this problem to free up frequencies for high demand routes - and maybe not. They have the data.

Jeff767

kop84

Boeing has missed out on the last couple of DL orders, but there are some good reasons that DL went with Airbus. Even if we take the political arguments out.

The wide-body order that DL went with the A350's were because Airbus could meet DL's production schedule. Boeing even acknowledged it by trying to offer some 777's as an interim replacement for the 747's. Hence the order when to AB.

The narrow-body order, the A320 family is just more comfortable than the 739, even though DL has a ton of those as well...there are entire threads to hating the 739. The A321 is wider than the 739 so regardless of how the 739 is configured the Airbus can offer more seat width.

DL went with the C-Series because neither Boeing or Airbus make a comparable plane (I know that AB has now basically bought the C-Series) And DL got a heck of a deal, but nothing that Boeing and Airbus haven't done with new planes.

DL is one of the largest airlines in the world, and Boeing is one of 2 companies that make wide-body planes. There may be some hurt feelings but that probably won't stop DL from making a Boeing Order when the need/price match up, and it won't stop Boeing from making an aggressive offer to DL anytime they go out for RFP.

If Boeing makes the best 757 replacement, DL will be right there to buy the 797. Just because they may not like each other at the top doesn't mean that DL's money doesn't spend or Boeing's planes don't fly.

readywhenyouare

I can guarantee that seat comfort is the last thing on Delta's mind when selecting an aircraft.

Gig103

Speaking of seat comfort, another article mentioned it being 2-3-2 like the 767 is... I just hope that it's truly deployed that way. Boeing claimed 2-4-2 for the Dreamliner and everyone did the math and said "Oh look, 3-3-3 fits!"

Austin787

I don't think current Delta management will order the 797 since they have made clear they prefer Airbus. I agree with the OP on Delta mentioning Boeing as a negotiation technique to keep Airbus honest on price. Delta may also want to push Airbus into launching a competitor to the 797.

RaflW

Delta just recently took delivery of several 'opportunistically priced' A333ceo aircraft. I suspect that part of the reason that the A330neo hasn't sold all that well is that many of the frames that the NEO would replace still have a lot of useful life left, not just for DL but for many customers. I haven't seen news that Delta is deferring their 25 frame order for the A330neo, either. I know they pushed some of the A350s back a few years.
It is interesting that IAG has continued to order A332s for Level. Must be some very nice pricing on those, and no real incentive for a ULCC to buy too much plane with the A330-8neo.

kop84

The last 4 orders (not a few additional planes, but true RFP's) Were for the 739's, then the 330/350's, then the C100, then the 321's. So that's 1 for Boeing, 2 for Airbus, and 1 for Bombardier that became a Airbus order because of Boeing!

I think it's a bit premature to say that DL is now going to be just Airbus. You may be correct and DL goes straight Airbus from here on, but I don't believe so, especially if Boeing creates a true MOM 757/767 replacement.

ethernal

People are ridiculous. The notion that Delta is never going to buy a Boeing plane because of a couple of supposed spats doesn't understand the industry whatsoever.

• Delta runs the third-largest MRO in the world with over a hundred third party customers. This helps them achieve both direct profit as well as indirect profit (increasing scale of MX ops reduces internal MX costs which can have high fixed costs related to spare parts inventory, etc). They have no intention to stop servicing Boeing jets - which means they will still want to own a mix of them in their fleets.
• Any airline that runs a complex global route network like Delta would be disadvantaged from running a single airplane because even within-class Airbus and Boeing planes have different pros and cons
• Negotiating power matters. While the benefits of a single plane outweighs the loss of negotiating power for, e.g., Southwest, the fact is that Delta is still going to run a complex mixed fleet - so they lose the benefits of a single airliner without a commiserate increase in negotiating power.