bubbashow

That is not the same as what it is. Right now, it is the same fare bucket. I think that should apply to all premium cabins, and I think that is what we will see. DL doesn't have to dig too far to see that this is a loophole that is being exploited.

Buy a G fare, but only allow a SDC to a G bucket. Makes perfect sense. This buying the G fare from SAN-MSP-LGA and SDC to SAN-LAX-JFK in D1 is nonsensical for the airline trying to maximize profits and protect a product.

jrl767

never mind ...

jrl767

you make it sound like there are a dozen DMs playing this game on a daily basis, which translates to DL leaving ~$25K a day ($750K/month, $9M/year) of potential walk-up D1 sales on the table ... I'm sure there's no way to discover the actual numbers, but I seriously doubt they would realize all of that revenue

BOSTransplant

First of all, you don't know that those tickets would go to someone using an instrument. They might be purchased as a walk up fare.

Second of all, you're negatively impacting the bottom line because you're devaluing the D1 brand by getting at a reduced cost something that DL typically charges extra or requires an instrument for. The same argument could be used for why DL doesn't offer free or steeply reduced upgrades to D1 to fill empty any empty seats (though JFK-LAX rarely flies with empty D1 seats). DL has made a bet that by protecting the integrity of D1, they will earn more money in the long run by people buying D1 tickets, rather than buying an economy fare and trying to upgrade or buying a different route and SDCing into D1 like you plan to do. Like you admitted in your very first post, you could have paid about $400 more to buy D1, or you could use an instrument, but if you attempt to get into D1 while neither paying the increased price nor paying with an instrument, then you're attempting to game the system.

Finally, just to point out, GUCs and RUCs have a value of their own, even if there is no fixed external dollar amount. You assume like your $900 F ticket is more valuable to DL than someone who bought a $500 economy ticket and used a RUC to upgrade, but that isn't necessarily true. I'm not sure exactly what value they assign internally to the upgrade instruments, but it's not nothing.

BOSTransplant

I think there's a wider impact beyond just the missed walk up sales though. DL wants to protect the "exclusive" branding of D1. That's why they don't allow upgrades without an instrument and the prices are so much more expensive than regular F fares. The concern goes beyond the individual seats that get filled by SDCers; it's that top flyers who might otherwise buy into D1 will see a bunch of other people gaming the system to get the product at a discount and be less inclined to pay full price for it on an ongoing basis.

davetravels

Why would that be? This is the first time I've ever heard this. I don't see why the DM hotline wouldn't be allowed / able to do it?

Zorak

So you think the same solid business minds that see the value in enhancing C+ ticketing are unable to dig not-too-far to figure out the SDC loophole and do a cost/benefit analysis there?

jrl767

standard comeback: unless someone is blathering in real time about how they were able to "game the system" I think it's unrealistic to expect those "top flyers" to know how much any other individual paid (either in $$ or miles or certificates) to be in D1

further, I think only a very small minority of said "top flyers" (and likely of all travelers, NRSA police notwithstanding) actually pay attention to the presence or absence of those who paid less, and allow that to drive their future purchase decisions

kop84

Not sure of the reasons, just what I've been told in the past.

BOSTransplant

It's true that not very many people have the knowledge to game the system as is, but you could also point out that flights on the route in question, JFK-LAX, almost always fly with the front full, so even a small number of gamers would quickly create a big dent in the bottom line, as virtually every single time someone games the airline, the direct opportunity cost is hundreds (if the "gamed" seat replaces someone trying to use a cert) or thousands (if the seat replaces a walk up fare-purchaser) of $s. I have never flown that route in off-peak hours, so I'm not sure if the weekend flights tend to also fill up with paid D1 and upgrade certificates. I'm sure at least the red eyes do.

Zorak

I'm not sure about your opportunity cost figures. The gamers still had to have a paid F or certificate upgrade on another flight before SDCing. There's a premium for JFK-LAX/SFO, sure, but it's not thousands of $s. And if someone already on the flight is trying to use a cert, they had a seat before the SDCer and they still have a seat after the SDCer so DL is not losing that revenue (just the second-order effect of the person being frustrated at the upgrade not clearing).

BOSTransplant

They lost money because now someone is sitting in D1 without paying a premium or using a cert. That means that the passenger who would have used his cert and been upgraded now still has his cert which he will presumably use on a future flight. I think of it like this: there's a divide between D1 and domestic first or regular economy. Every way to bridge that gap to D1 costs either one cert or the premium D1 fare. Buying F and SDCing to D1 is a way to bridge that gap for "free," so to speak, even though the domestic F ticket obviously is not free. The gamer is essentially getting a benefit (flying in D1) without paying the price that the airline has determined that benefit should cost, which is a loss to the airline assuming that they could otherwise fill D1 with people either paying the premium or paying with a cert.

DiverDave

I think you greatly overestimate the population of gamers.

And I also expect that those D1 flights have significant numbers of non-revs sitting up front these days. (And that's not a dig at NRSA travel, just noting an expected by-product of eliminating complimentary upgrades on these routes.)

David

jrl767

the biggest problem with this train of logic is the apparent underlying assumption that 100% of SDCers are gamers

I have no doubt that the DL FT community has a disproportionately high percentage of gamers when compared to the rest of the universe of DL passengers, but I also have no doubt that -- at least until very recently -- the DL FT community has a disproportionately high percentage of real DL devotees who actually use SDC/SDS as the policies are written, and who are less than pleased by many if not most of the impending changes (as well as a lot of changes that have already gone down)

kop84

I'm willing to bet that the percentage of people that plan on SDCing co-terminal or otherwise to get a lie-flat JFK-SFO/LAX is less than 1%.

However Just looking at OW prices for December 7 OW SAN/NYC in F/J

SAN/JFK NS - $853
SAN/ATL/LGA - $677
SAN/LAX/JFK - $2,633

I'm just saying that it doesn't take a lot of "gamers" at this price differential (I know it's one route on one day so not fully representative) to cause a change in policy.

I expect JFK-SFO/LAX removed from SDC connecting options (in F/J only) unless it was originally purchased that way.