Proudelitist

Here's the thing...I don't care. I don't care if they are spending their last few precious moments together. If it was that important, they should have booked seats together. If they got hosed by IRROPS...well. STILL not my problem. Another case of people confusing a WANT with a NEED.

ATOBTTR

I feel very fortunate that my interactions with people like you have been limited to FlyerTalk and not on actual planes or in public. Convinces me that people like you are 1) a very small and insignificant portion of the population and thus I haven't come across people like you just based on statistics or 2) people like you are merely internet tough guys and keyboard commandos, but act less like jerks in person when you actually have to deal with and face people.

Proudelitist

And you are the typical example of the self-entitled person who cannot stand that someone refuses a selfish imposition you make on them to be seated with your adult companion.

Who is really the jerk? The person disturbs another passenger for their own selfish interests, or the person who says no to that kind of behavior on principle?

If you needed to be with your lovey so badly Why didn't you book seats together?

1973 Ford Pinto

this may be the most ironic statement ever uttered in the history of not just this website but the entire internet

ATOBTTR

It keeps getting repeated and you keep ignoring it - it's not that you say no, it's how, and how you whine on here that's in imposition and no should dare ask you. In many cases people do swap. I've had plenty of people swap for me when I've asked - heck one guy was happy as heck to take my aisle seat and for his middle, even when I "poached" his middle seat - I guess you would have stayed there just to make a point though, huh? I've even initiated swaps when I've seen a couple split apart across the aisle. I've had people ask me to swap. Many times I've obliged. A couple times I've said no. I'm not upset that I was asked. You are upset that you're even asked, and thus "disturbed".

Yes, "disturbs". If being asked to swap seats is the greatest disturbance you ever have in your life, well, I don't know whether to envy you that you have such a lifestyle in that being asked to swap seats is the greatest problem in your life or feel sorry for you in that you're so easily bothered in life. While I've had people turn down swap requests before, thankfully my interactions with people who act like you in response to seat swaps requests have been limited to FlyerTalk.

And there in lies the issue - you immediately resort to a way of placing all the blame on the one who asks, which I guess makes you feel better about saying "no", even if the reasoning you're using wasn't the case. In our cases we DID book seats together. But IROPS happen. Equipment swaps happen. Does that mean the person is reuqired to swap? No. But that doesn't mean we can't at least ask. I'm not really sure why you can't fathom that people who know each other want to sit next to each other..... but again, thankfully people like you are insignificant in population or tone it down in the real world.

GatorBlues

I haven't violated any rules. I've criticized your opinion and behavior, just as you and Proudelitist have proclaimed how obnoxious you believe others are for daring to ask you a question politely on an airplane.

Proudelitist has repeatedly made the arguments I cited about "want/need" and "my seat." Nothing in my post attributes those arguments specifically to you. In fact, the initial post you found objectionable said nothing about you in particular. If you aren't trolling, I wonder why you were so quick to be offended at my observation that some of the recent posts border on trolling.

After years of frequent flying, I've experienced just the opposite -- virtually every request has been polite. You're just unlucky, I guess.

Yes, your examples -- farting and a stranger ringing the doorbell to ask to be allowed into your home (a stranger who, unlike an aircraft passenger, has not been screened for weapons) -- are exactly like asking to trade seats on an airplane. In fact, after reading your post's incredible display of rhetorical prowess through its deft display of accurate and compelling analogies, one truly wonders how I could have ever characterized your side's arguments as elitist trolling.

PTravel

It's this kind of hyperbole that is making this discussion so difficult. No one has ever said anything remotely like, "this is the greatest disturbance I've ever had in my life." As I wrote in my post, there is disturbance and there is disturbance. Someone who asks me while I'm on the way to my seat is barely disturbing. Someone who taps me on the shoulder after I've settled in, put on my headphones and music, closed my eyes and am trying to sleep, constitutes considerably more disturbance. This is compounded if I'm exhausted, haven't gotten much sleep, or had a particularly difficult day. And all of this is very typical for me when I fly on business. You're not disturbed much? That's fine, but I really don't understand why you think you have the right to determine how much this kind of interruption is for someone else.

And the other poster gave an unfortunately glib answer. I'll stick with my own: I don't care. Your problem is with the airline, not with strangers who have done nothing more than take their assigned seats. If the airline decides that I have to swap to accommodate you, then my problem, too, is with the airline and not you, because you have done nothing more than what the airline told you to do. However, under no circumstances is it ever incumbent upon me to consider your situation -- it's not my problem. The only exception is, as I've previously written, if it's a genuine emergency, in which case I'd help out any fellow human being.

You're missing the point. This isn't about whether someone is required to swap, but whether it's appropriate to ask for a swap. There's no law against you asking. There's also no rule against you farting. Both constitute a nuisance and imposition. In some circumstances, the nuisance is trivial. In other circumstances, less so. Regardless, you don't get to determine for someone else whether they should consider the request annoying and inappropriate or not. I suspect that is what was meant by the prior poster's description of your approach as "self-entitled."

Well, again, I'm not really sure why you can't fathom that people who are strangers don't care if you want to sit next to each other. I'm also not really sure why you can't father that many people don't want to be disturbed unnecessarily by strangers on aircraft. I'm not going to get all bent out of shape if you ask me for a swap while I'm on my way to my seat. Most likely, I'm just going to say, "sorry, no." However, as I've said several times, if you tap me on the shoulder after I'm settled in, listening to music and trying to sleep, then you are being rude, self-centered and annoying because you have disturbed me unnecessarily, and I'm going to respond to you as such. Is that really such an alien concept?

PTravel

Well, let's ask the moderators:

Moderators: is calling another poster an "elitist troll" a violation of the FT TOS?

Name-calling isn't criticism of my opinion. You know nothing of my behavior, except that I've been civil to you in this exchange, whereas you have not.

Okay, here's a challenge: Please provide the post number and quote in which I have said I believe someone is "obnoxious for daring to ask me a question politely on an airplane." You're making up quotes that don't exist, and attributing opinions to me that I don't hold. Are you a politician or some kind of political operative? If so, I can understand you're using these tactics. If not, however, it's just plain rude.

If you weren't calling me an elitist troll, then I think you for the clarification and you can continue sparring with Proudelitist. It wasn't at all clear, given that your criticism was directed towards those who don't like to be asked to swap, and I have been quite clear that I don't.

Apparently so. Suggesting that I'm lying, however, is, again, an appropriate tactic for a politician, but not for FTers having a discussion in a thread.

Well, again, you miss the point entirely, and, needless to say, I never said anything about allowing strangers into your home. I'll spell it out:

Asking the favor of a swap, farting and door-to-door solicitation are all legal.

Asking the favor of a swap, farting and door-to-door solicitation are ally annoying to some degree.

Are we clear now?

I don't have a side. Do you think I'm on some kind of team with Proudelitist? I'm not. As for the rest of your attempt at irony, it's substanceless and completely irrelevant to this discussion, so I'll just ignore it.

fliesdelta

This happened to me a couple of weeks ago.

I had a C+ aisle seat on my flight home, but had to do a last minute change to another flight (work related, not DL's fault). I ended up with a middle seat, because it was the only choice to get home that evening.

When I got to my row, there was someone else in my seat. The guy immediately said his wife was on the window, would I mind seating on the aisle? I took it.

But it seems that to a couple of FT'ers, that was a grave transgression as he was sitting in "my" seat.

To those couple of folks: would you have really booted the guy "on principle"?

Anyway. Enjoy the rest of the thread, I'm out.

ATOBTTR

No - the absolutes are what makes the discussion difficult. When you’re an absolutist, anyone not completely in your camp must be the opposite and thus wrong. Plenty of us view that there is a middle ground that you and others don’t seem to see.

Yet the statements act like it.

So what do you want (besides the argument of convenience)? Would you rather someone board ahead of you and poach your seat so that you’re not already settled in to your seat when asked? Or would you rather they not poach it but then disturb you?

So you expect people to care and consider your factors in why you shouldn’t be asked for a swap and thus being “disturbed” by merely even being asked, but you don’t want to care or consider other people’s factors in why they’re asking for a seat swap....

It’s like you don’t even read what you write:
You’ve made it clear someone is rude and disturbing you “unnecessarily” if the ask you after you’ve “settled in” (but again you’ve made it clear you don’t like poachers too), even if you didn’t specifically use the word “onboxious”. All you’re arguing now is semantics. “No, I didn’t say I was ‘angry’, I said I was ‘mad’”. And then you ask someone else if they’re playing politician word games? Seriously?

PTravel

And you're looking at this wrong. If someone says, "I absolutely don't like it when someone asks for a swap," they're telling you what they feel about such requests. And they're perfectly entitled to feel that way. You're free to tell them why you feel differently. However, you're the one who is telling them, "No, you are wrong to feel that way." It's a lot like religious proselytizing which, incidentally, I find extremely offensive.

If that were the case, then it wouldn't be necessary to exaggerate or extrapolate to extremes, would it?

I would rather they simply leave me alone, rather than making me an unwilling participant to their problem with airline. Why should it become my problem that they've got a problem with their sesat?

I expect people not to bother me, just as I am expected not to bother them. I already told you the one factor I am willing to consider: if someone is traveling for a genuine emergency (in my opinion), I'll not only swap, I'll provide whatever assistance I can. Otherwise, they're interrupting whatever I happen to be doing in the hope that I'll agree to fix their problem.

Frequently, I don't, which is why there are so many typos in my post.

However, I never said that I believe someone is "obnoxious for daring to ask me a question politely on an airplane."

I was very clear about a situation in I considered the asker to be rude and offensive: tapping me on the should when I'm settled in with headphones on trying to sleep. That is not "asking a question politely." Or do you think that it is?

That's right, I consider poaching rude. And obnoxious. Once again, in my experience, every poacher I've encountered (who was not there because of an honest mistake, i.e. taking 4A thinking it was 3A), gave me an argument and, twice (parents with children both times). it required calling the FA who finally had to threaten calling security to get them out of my seat.

No, this has nothing to do with semantics. I don't care if you substitute "obnoxious" for "offensive." I do care when you suggest I find obnoxious (or offensive) "for daring to ask me a question politely on an airplane." I've neither said nor implied anything of the kind. I was very specific about the kind of behavior that I considered obnoxious, and it's not merely "politely asking me a question on an airplane." That's hyperbolic bombast on your part and it's completely disingenuous.

No, I asked them if they were a politician or a political operative, because hyperbolic bombast is a common tactic used by politicians and might be more understandable coming from that poster if he was, in fact, a politician or a political operative. It is not, however, conducive to civil discussion between me and that poster and, for that matter, me and you.

ATOBTTR

So then how do you expect them to ask in a way that isn't rude to you? You don't want them poaching your seat. But you don't want them asking after you're settled in. Because people are going to ask. That's part of traveling on a commercial airline. So unless they happen to catch you at the moment you're getting to your seat or happen to be right behind you as you're boarding, the odds are very slim they'll catch you in the tiny window for which you define it as "not rude". You choose to see it as rude but you leave someone little choice but to be rude as you define it. Unless you have a sign around your neck as to what you define as rude and obnoxious, they have no idea what you consider rude. "Rude" is also subjective from person to person and culture to culture.

Grogs

LOL, I'd have to call your bluff even if I didn't want to swap seats:

Eta Harasho. Ya tozhe gavaryu pa-russki! Vwi hatitye menyatcya mectami?

GatorBlues

Please show me where I wrote "PTravel is an elitist troll." Hmm, do you think, just maybe, that tossing the word "elitist" in there might have been a subtle clue to the double secret hidden meaning about the person to whom the post was referring? He obviously doesn't mind given that he picked it as his screen name.

Here's your challenge: Please show me where I put that phrase in quotes or otherwise claimed anyone, much less you, wrote it word for word. So we have dispensed with the nonsense that I supposedly made up quotes. To the contrary, I characterized the substance of your argument, quite accurately I might add. You just don't like the that many of us believe that your opinions -- that you'll never swap other than an undefined "emergency," and that the very moment you slide on your headphones, it becomes rude for anyone to speak to you -- are self-centered and obnoxious. (But less self-centered and obnoxious than Proudelitist's views, so you've got that going for you, which is nice.)

I'm either a "politician," "some kind of political operative," or "just plain rude." And I'm the name caller?

How many times have you been asked to swap with every single one being rude or inappropriate in some way? Yes, I find it hard to believe that I've been asked many times politely over the years, and yet, you've never once been asked politely. As I said previously, you're either really unlucky, being disingenuous, or are hyper-sensitive. I suspect its the last one in light of your stated opinions about what constitutes a purportedly rude request and how you've shown yourself in this thread to be so easily offended.

Your argument was clear the first time. It is simply nonsensical. The three issues aren't even remotely comparable, other than two of them are legal and one of them is legal in some places (in many cities, including mine, door to door solicitation is unlawful because of the safety risks involved with fake salesmen trying to enter homes). The vast majority of people find the latter two issues to be annoying. Very few believe that asking the favor of a swap is annoying. Based on my experience, your negative attitude about being asked a question on a plane is an outlier.

Hopefully you realize that by calling the last sentence of my prior post "substanceless and completely irrelevant to this discussion," you didn't, in fact, ignore it. To the contrary, you highlighted that it hit its mark. You must be one heck of a poker player.

PTravel

Ah, now you're catching on. I expect them to leave me alone and not ask. Why in the world would you think it's remotely acceptable to bother someone with headphones on and eyes closed?

RUDE people are going to ask in those circumstances. That's the whole point. There is no RIGHT to have a swap request heard. I don't need to make myself available to you so that you can ask me for a favor.

No, it isn't. There is no right to go around pestering people about changing seats. 99.9% of people board a plane, take their assigned seats, and then go about their business without bothering anyone else.

That's essentially correct.

Are you serious? Really, in what world do you think it's acceptable to bother someone who's trying to sleep so you can ask them for a favor that, among other things, will require that they put all their gear away, get up and move somewhere else IF they agree?

I don't know anyone who wouldn't think that was incredibly rude. I've traveled all over their world and I've never been anywhere where that would not be considered. Honestly, if I was just dozing off and you tapped my shoulder and said, "Excuse me, but would you change seats with me so I can sit next to my?" my response wouldn't be polite and, probably, would include a threat to have the FA notify the police and have you arrested if you touched me again.