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Originally Posted by aero0729
(Post 18757030)
Threads and comments like this is why airline CEO's consider elites over - entitled. I am against airlines offering super cheap upgrades to low fare coach passengers instead of upgrading an elite...but an M fare upgrading to an F fare is absolutely fair game. Those pissed off can go somewhere else to find the same thing. You can gripe all you want but your business-sense is garbage. Delta has the right and is not doing anything unethical by offering F seats for purchase. And $715 for a one way MSP-SEA is not considered a bargain that many people are going to jump on.
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Originally Posted by bubbashow
(Post 18757100)
Careful aero....these folks don't like to pay for the service they desire. If you express a counter-opinion, they will come after you =-). Kinda funny, actually - because with the changes over the past year, you can see which was this is going and which opinion wins in the end.
Delta has the power in this negotiation, but without their HVCs they would lose much of their leverage. I think that's why the elites who dislike the changes are so vocal in expressing their frustration. Suddenly the terms of the game are being changed to their disadvantage and they don't want to walk away (which is the only counter-action that has any teeth). |
Originally Posted by dcline414
(Post 18757166)
No one likes to get just what they pay for when they can get more than they pay for. The first rule of negotiation is that you have to stop believing the adage "you get what you pay for". You don't always have to pay more to get more, and you don't always get more when you pay more (coach seats being a great example of this).
Delta has the power in this negotiation, but without their HVCs they would lose much of their leverage. I think that's why the elites who dislike the changes are so vocal in expressing their frustration. Suddenly the terms of the game are being changed to their disadvantage and they don't want to walk away (which is the only counter-action that has any teeth). |
Originally Posted by dcline414
(Post 18756986)
Personally, I had no intention of ever flying WN, ?
Originally Posted by dcline414
(Post 18756986)
I certainly no longer feel loyal to Delta. I just use their services out of convenience, just like they use me for my money.
I saw this article on the news wires this AM - some honesty from an expert panel on the MEM status quo - "not a lot you can do." http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/b...html?ana=yfcpc |
Originally Posted by hazelrah
(Post 18760787)
IMO Delta hub captives don't have much choice. I don't lay this per se at Delta's doorstep, all the legacies behave like, well, monopolists when they have a monopoly hub or a high degree of monopolistic concentration.
I will pay a reasonable (and sometimes unreasonable) premium to DL to fly direct/non-stop, yet when the oppurtunity presents itself, I have no issue flying any other carrier. Yet there has to be a reason to forgo direct/non-stop service. Layovers stink. |
Not complaining BUT.......
T-2 days.
F9/Y9 and K fares still available. EF shows a seat map with 80 % open in FC. No V open at all. Seems to me that come Sunday morning there will be that crazy CF at the gate as the GA has to clear 15 plus elites in the last 45 minutes. For the elites, it means getting an aisle if they prefer a window, bulkhead when they prefer something else, row 7 when row 2 is available etc. For others (Gm and FO) it means the new EC seats go out empty, go out with standby or shuffled kettles, or go out with Nonrevs.. Seems to me that not only is Delta complicating the GAs life, irritating the top tier elites, but moreover leaving money on the table from EC sales. For what? For the chance that they can sell at the last minute three quarters of the FC cabin. This has become standard on some of my routes and even with FCM, this is ridiculous. I am fully aware of the opportunity to sell FC last minute but seriously Delta, do you honestly believe that 20 people are going to walk up at the last minute? The five day window is disappearing but the adverts for it are not. I've only missed one upgrade this year and that was when 5 days out it was F4 so I get that. I have been stuck doing BFUG though and that is a pain. I am not a hub captive and I have choices. Starting to think about it. It's not about the upgrades, it's about the process and the honesty. |
Originally Posted by sbagdon
(Post 18760983)
I'm a hub-captive (DTW), and I have no problem finding and using the competition. Yet at least we have competition, I'm hearing that MEM lacks WN to stir up the pot.
I will pay a reasonable (and sometimes unreasonable) premium to DL to fly direct/non-stop, yet when the oppurtunity presents itself, I have no issue flying any other carrier. Yet there has to be a reason to forgo direct/non-stop service. Layovers stink. MEM is an extreme example on the other end of the spectrum as apparently (using the number from the article) Delta has an 80% market share. Non-stop and direct flights are great. Referring back to the article, one expert is quoted as noting that in order for the status quo to change, people need to make choices that are inconvenient (and they won't). That's why FCM is here to stay. |
Originally Posted by Bicostal
(Post 18761055)
I am not a hub captive and I have choices. Starting to think about it. It's not about the upgrades, it's about the process and the honesty.
* minimal pre-departure ticketing disruption, either from refundable fares, free-changes, fee-changes, no-shows, T-72 awards, etc. And a predictable and repeatable path, from 330 days out, to departure. * maximized T-72/24 cash-flow, via FCM and EC sales. * reduced GA load, from VDB processing, BFUGs, EC sales, gate-checked bags, etc. That's getting interestingly close to the "3 options, and you only get to pick 2". Granted, you have to crack some eggs to make an omelette, yet this is one choatic omelette that DL is attempting to bring order to. Just about everything is out of balance, and DL is trying to build the systems/business processes to bring balance back (or maybe they're not, figuring the system will balance itself out). I figure it'll take the rest of the year, yet we'll see FCM, DM UGs, EC sales, etc, find an equilibrium. I suspect that in the short term, FCM is going to increase RASM (the sale of a single A/P over cycle-to-cycle will potentially raise RASM), which would mean it's here to say. It's the long term that is a question, if/when Elites stop paying-up for the hope of an upgrade, and if that ends up decreasing overall RASM. |
Originally Posted by aero0729
(Post 18757030)
Threads and comments like this is why airline CEO's consider elites over - entitled. I am against airlines offering super cheap upgrades to low fare coach passengers instead of upgrading an elite...but an M fare upgrading to an F fare is absolutely fair game. Those pissed off can go somewhere else to find the same thing. You can gripe all you want but your business-sense is garbage. Delta has the right and is not doing anything unethical by offering F seats for purchase. And $715 for a one way MSP-SEA is not considered a bargain that many people are going to jump on.
Right now, Delta has not done that... they still let everyone upgrade... the difference is, that on selected flights, they do not let anyone upgrade and sell the seats on coach fares that are the same as the $50-$75 gate upgrades they used to sell after elites had cleared. Delta is being unethical because they have made a significant change in the upgrade process and it is an upgrade process. People are not buying F tix, they are buying upgrades. IF you think I am incorrect in this statement, talk to the guy flying in the middle seat in the back of the bus who missed his last flight and was told he did not have a FC seat. Delta can certainly do the above and have, but at the same time advertising more FC access more loyal customers is unethical. You stated by business sense was garbage, yet actually gove no real proof sources as to what my business sense was and why it is garbage. I will give you another shot. Maybe you have more of a spine than some of the other potshotters on here and will make an effort to make a case... If you do not respond or attempt to spin, I will take it as an apology for your misspeaking.... Thanks |
Originally Posted by aero0729
(Post 18757030)
Threads and comments like this is why airline CEO's consider elites over - entitled. I am against airlines offering super cheap upgrades to low fare coach passengers instead of upgrading an elite...but an M fare upgrading to an F fare is absolutely fair game. Those pissed off can go somewhere else to find the same thing. You can gripe all you want but your business-sense is garbage. Delta has the right and is not doing anything unethical by offering F seats for purchase. And $715 for a one way MSP-SEA is not considered a bargain that many people are going to jump on.
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Originally Posted by Thomas Hudson
(Post 18761275)
Whoa there skipper... You certainly assume a lot in this little gem. Delta can cetainly change the game if they want and we can all make our decisions accordingly. I rarely fly below a M fare and I fly a lot, so taking away upgrades from Diamonds who buy L fares would help me out, especially on the 50 plus % of the tix I purchase within 5 or less days of departure.
If you are buying fewer than 5 days from departure, wouldn't this allow you to buy these last-minute P fares about which you complain. YMMV, but I have successfully had the Medallion Line change a Q fare to a P fare penalty free because it involved a change of cabin. Right now, Delta has not done that... they still let everyone upgrade... the difference is, that on selected flights, they do not let anyone upgrade and sell the seats on coach fares that are the same as the $50-$75 gate upgrades they used to sell after elites had cleared. They have developed a pricing point (often much-more than $50-75) that sells F inventory. Why shouldn't revenue be maximized per flight. An extra $300 per flight x X number of flights = a lot of money for DL over a year. Moreover, DL has historically ALWAYS sold A fares which are the same type of fare. Adding the P bucket doesn't invent a practice, it is just slightly-altered. In some markets, A is less than P. Delta is being unethical because they have made a significant change in the upgrade process and it is an upgrade process. People are not buying F tix, they are buying upgrades. IF you think I am incorrect in this statement, talk to the guy flying in the middle seat in the back of the bus who missed his last flight and was told he did not have a FC seat. DL has simply experimented with pricing models and found a price at which first class can sell. I seriously doubt that DL will sell the remaining 86% of inventory through P fares, meaning plenty of upgrades to Elites. I have had the experience of a misconnect and had NO PROBLEM getting the F cabin on a "P" bucket fare. YMMV. DL has adopted a specific service recovery process if a P fare is purchased and the passenger cannot be placed in F. In addition, you will get the F cabin on that fare, if you are willing to wait for F to be available. Always. That could be a day or two in weather-related problems in ATL, but the option is and ALWAYS HAS BEEN THERE. Delta can certainly do the above and have, but at the same time advertising more FC access more loyal customers is unethical. I know you would like to ignore the obvious "space available" line in the promise. It has always been there, it still is. Clean the line off the bifocals and read the entire marketing process. There is and only has been one method to CONFIRM F at booking - buy it - with miles, or money. Period. Never been anything different, never will be anything different. There is nothing unethical about the process. DL is clear that it isn't guaranteed. With the addition of F class to the entire large regional jet fleet and the increase in 757 first, they indeed are adding F class. You stated by business sense was garbage, yet actually gove no real proof sources as to what my business sense was and why it is garbage. I will give you another shot. Maybe you have more of a spine than some of the other potshotters on here and will make an effort to make a case... If you do not respond or attempt to spin, I will take it as an apology for your misspeaking.... I think your business sense is out of alignment with DL, the current airline industry, and the direction in which this business will be going. Now, Thomas H. How about a few personal insults. My spine is ready Thanks |
Originally Posted by aero0729
(Post 18757030)
Threads and comments like this is why airline CEO's consider elites over - entitled. I am against airlines offering super cheap upgrades to low fare coach passengers instead of upgrading an elite...but an M fare upgrading to an F fare is absolutely fair game. Those pissed off can go somewhere else to find the same thing. You can gripe all you want but your business-sense is garbage. Delta has the right and is not doing anything unethical by offering F seats for purchase. And $715 for a one way MSP-SEA is not considered a bargain that many people are going to jump on.
$715 for one-way MSP-SEA is a bargain that I'd jump on if I have to fly and the cheapest coach fare available is $665 (or, worse, considering the stupidity of some of DL's FCM pricing algorithms, $800). |
Originally Posted by bubbashow
(Post 18761412)
YMMV, but I have successfully had the Medallion Line change a Q fare to a P fare penalty free because it involved a change of cabin.
Originally Posted by bubbashow
(Post 18761412)
I know you would like to ignore the obvious "space available" line in the promise. It has always been there, it still is. Clean the line off the bifocals and read the entire marketing process.
For an HA00A0QN/WNUP, the fare rules state (after drilling down 2 extra pop-ups): NOTE - STANDBY IS NOT PERMITTED. SAME DAY CONFIRM/SDC - PASSENGERS HOLDING CONFIRMED RESERVATIONS AND TICKETS MAY CONFIRM EARLIER/LATER SAME DAY FLIGHTS BETWEEN SAME ORIGIN/DESTINATION/ STOPOVER POINTS FOR A NON-REFUNDABLE FEE OF USD 50.00 PLUS ANY DIFFERENCE IN GOVERNMENT IMPOSED ITINERARY BASED FEES. NEW ITINERARY MAY NOT BE CONFIRMED MORE THAN 3 HOURS PRIOR TO DEPARTURE TIME OF NEW OUTBOUND FLIGHT. THE NEW ITINERARY MUST BE VALID FOR THE ORIGINAL FARE PURCHASED. EXCEPTION- IF ORIGINAL FARE PURCHASED REQUIRES TRAVEL VIA A CONNECTING POINT - TRAVEL VIA NON STOP SERVICE IS PERMITTED FOR NO DIFFERENCE IN FARE. SEE PENALTIES/VOLUNTARY CHANGES FOR COMPLETE RULES AND RESTRICTIONS. And: A. SEAT INVENTORY MUST BE AVAILABLE IN THE CABIN APPLICABLE TO THE FARE CHARGED The fare rules appear to call out what happens if you change your flight based on regular operations (such as SDC). What I can't find called out is what happens if your flight is changed based on irregular operations (such as wx/mx/etc). Yet to have to drill down two extra pop-ups, and read through a couple of thousand words, would explain why not many people are, and why this mx/wx/ir-ops downgrading discussion keeps repeating. A simple statement of "I clicked on the F column and now I'm sitting in Y with no compensation" deserves a simple rebuttal or explanation. |
Originally Posted by sbagdon
(Post 18761163)
I'll agree that DL has gone on a strategic path, without a clear view of how to operationalize it. It appears DL wants:
* minimal pre-departure ticketing disruption, either from refundable fares, free-changes, fee-changes, no-shows, T-72 awards, etc. And a predictable and repeatable path, from 330 days out, to departure. * maximized T-72/24 cash-flow, via FCM and EC sales. * reduced GA load, from VDB processing, BFUGs, EC sales, gate-checked bags, etc. That's getting interestingly close to the "3 options, and you only get to pick 2". Granted, you have to crack some eggs to make an omelette, yet this is one choatic omelette that DL is attempting to bring order to. Just about everything is out of balance, and DL is trying to build the systems/business processes to bring balance back (or maybe they're not, figuring the system will balance itself out). I figure it'll take the rest of the year, yet we'll see FCM, DM UGs, EC sales, etc, find an equilibrium. I suspect that in the short term, FCM is going to increase RASM (the sale of a single A/P over cycle-to-cycle will potentially raise RASM), which would mean it's here to say. It's the long term that is a question, if/when Elites stop paying-up for the hope of an upgrade, and if that ends up decreasing overall RASM. |
Originally Posted by Bicostal
(Post 18762081)
In my case, though, it isn't even FCM. Right now, I could buy a K or M (I'm on Q I think) for about the same as I paid a week ago, or I could, today, buy P for twice that and "real" F for about twice that.
Prepare for further capacity cuts. |
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