PMMMDL

I always found the DL and CO Business products similar. While CO's seat is a little wider on the 767s, I'm not large enough to notice the difference. The soft product and crews were also very similar. The difference for me was two fold.

1. I don't like entering the country at EWR (If I was forced to go through JFK on DL it would be a wash, but ATL is soooo much easier, quicker, and nicer IMO).

2. Route structure. CO's hubs are just in the wrong places for me, requiring 2 hour+ ERJ ill timed flights to connect anywhere.

DeltaFirst

I agree with you about Delta FAs being more experienced and maybe what I mean is more personable but not saying COs aren't, just not as much. I'm impressed with COs baggage handling, a priority tag means something. A couple of times I've thought about asking the DL TA to not put the priority tag on a checked bag, maybe just my imagination but I think it's often an opportunity for ATL baggage handlers to unload their wrath on the airline by making their best and 2nd best DL customers miserable when they arrive at their destinations. Overall the products are similar but CO does seem to have superior customer service.

hfly

Avidflyer, your point above has some credence regarding the "trying" of other airlines but is somewhat meaningless. So you'll go try somewhere else because you have 250k? Well, you may have done this already and much faster when you hit 75k, which presumably at the end of March (all things being equal), so in an identical situation they'll still have "you" for a greater annual spend, and you'll have to keep spending as much if you want to "keep" your rollover. Look, LH and one or two other carriers have two year status, so ideally if you qualify for Senator and hit 100k next year, you don;t need to even fly one flight the next two years, as long as you do 100k the third. Guess what, while I may not hit 100k the second year, I probably still hit 80 or 90k simply because LH or its Star Alliance partners fly where I need to go in a much more efficient way.

pbarnette

Agreed, even if this is way off topic. I don't see much difference between BE and CO BF. Certainly not enough to make me choose one over the other. The BIG advantage of DL is not just that you don't have to transfer at EWR, but that you have far more opportunities to transfer at AMS. Going to Europe, DL offers far more gateways than CO does. I would take PDX-AMS-MAD over PDX-EWR-MAD every time, for example. Heck, I'd take SLC-CDG-MAD over SLC-EWR-MAD every time, too.

Maybe my opinion will change when the BF flat beds come out. I don't see much in the specs or the limited reviews to suggest they are substantially better than the 764 flat beds (which I think are quite nice), but I'm willing to give them a try for myself. The problem, of course, is that the CO rollout is likely to be at a glacial pace, so unless they start dedicating particular planes to particular routes, which they are loathe to do, I'm not sure I will be playing flat-seat roullette.

This is my issue with this argument. It makes "sense" on its face, but I struggle to think of too many folks that hit this kind of mileage, yet haven't flown more than one or two airlines with any regularity. I won't hit close to 250k BIS miles, even if you include my award redemptions, yet I've flown KL, AF, SK, LX, DL, NW, SQ, B6, CX, BA, and a few others within the past year or so. I would have to think that schedule and then price will continue to be the dominate considerations for the flying public. I find it hard to believe that scores of people log 250k BIS miles, yet are willing to trade non-stops for connections with any frequency. I mean, how much is your time worth? How unethical would one have to be to habitually spend more of your company's money to avoid a particular carrier?

hfly

Its not just time and money, you flew CX and SQ last year. Both which in Business have better products in general than DL and which are generally regarded as two of the worlds best airlines (I often disagree on SQ but that is for other threads). So perhaps you flew a nonstop on Cathay from the US, well now you can fly Delta, but unless you live in DTW or PEK you are not going to get it nonstop, all things being equal you would generally want the CX flight as it is nonstop and the service is better. Why wouldn;t you? Because you'd be dropping over 22,000 MQM's in not doing so - this isn't such a foreign concept, its one of the reasons that FT exists. One you hit the tier you want you may go ahead and do so, but the thought is that many won't.

pbarnette

Didn't fly J. Flew them strictly on schedule and price.

But your point about quality and connections is exactly mine. If you live in New York and want to fly non-stop, the obvious choice is probably between DL and CO, so sure, you might switch for a better FF program, but if you live in MSP, you are probably wasting your time, unless you happen to fly predominately on routes that would be comparable through another hub - i.e. you fly to Europe often, but not to AMS, or you fly to HKG, but not NRT.

For those outside of hubs or a place where one carrier/connection point just makes more sense, I just struggle to understand why you would have ever been blindly loyal in the first place. I don't fly DL because I'm a Plat, I'm a Plat because I fly DL (and Skyteam). I fly them because they almost always have the best price and/or routing for my routes. At best, my status is a tie-breaker. I'd be more than happy to switch my business to anybody that beats them in that regard. Heck, how do you think I managed SK status? It is an awful program, frankly, but if you fly in and out of CPH, at some point you end up flying SK, or you end up wasting your time.

It is the fact that price and schedule is already such an overwhelming incentive that leads me to be skeptical about the prevalence of holding short. The incentive is already so strong to play the field, that I don't think a a couple of better SWUs are really going to make the difference for most rational consumers.

florin

+1

cullen24

I see your point, but see a larger concern for consistency. Airlines are retooling, attempting to acquire more loyal customers during this downtime, positionally increasing their market share as the economy rebounds. However, there was a time when flying was an infrequent experience to me and all I cared about was cost. I travel frequently now, the novelty is past and I will be traveling more in the future (just added 5 more trips to 2010 this week). When I am enroute, I work or sleep. The upgrades allow me space to be productive, use my laptop, get a meal/snack and I have grown accustom to the conveinance. It is the primary reason for my loyalty to one airline and willingness to pay more $ to continue that loyalty.

I would guess that most on this site are frequent business travelers (unless you are a Nomad as highlighted in a recent book entitled The NuNomad ) who see travel as another asspect of their job. Its time consuming and if I was stuck in coach all the time, I would consider a different angle to my work or one that was less complicated.

avidflyer

I disagree if this is a sweeping statement. Yes there are some who are always going to complain if they do not get the UG but this thread was started by someone who thought/thinks there will be a huge inflation of the ranks next year and his UG % will suffer. I can see why that would concern somebody who believed the premise and thus I can understand the thread. The reality is that the ranks will be inflated relative the rest of the flying population but the gross % will actually be down due to the economy in my opinion. That said, Gold and Silver will NOT be what it once was and that I can almost guarantee. The odd part is I do not see Golds complaining nearly as much as Plats?? The Plats should be fine for Upgrades next year but if you are Gold or Silver look out.


As for the comment about people just wanting a platform paint themselves as deserving the UG more than the other guy because of how much they fly, whatever.....I will only accept that from any poster who does not list their status. If you list your status in your FT profile then you are openly proclaiming you deserve the UG more than the population under your status. It is quite hypocritical to state that was the intent of this thread was but to have DL PLAT listed in your profile...same thing guys.

pbarnette

This makes little sense to me. DM's will almost certainly come from the Plat pool, so I see little reason to think that the number of people in front of Golds and Silvers should increase. Indeed, since the DM level is so scary and everybody and his brother is holding short of DM or using rollover to take a DL holiday, then wouldn't that suggest the numbers above Gold and Silver on any given flight should decrease?

I think the only people that will possibly be hurt by this are those that routinely barely squeak by Gold, Plat, or DM, as they might see some inflation in their ranks from rollover in a particular year. But even this impact is muted for next year, as rollover will have just started.

I don't think this is the case at all. Posting your status on FT provides other users some insight into where you are coming from. I don't have an issue with stating that you fly 250k BIS miles each year. That is informative. What I have a problem with is the constant sniping about those that "earned" their status (using some self-serving standard, of course), vs those that didn't, creating a distinction about the worthiness of any particular elites.

avidflyer

On my theory on FO/Gold: It is my belief that a combination of the MQM give-aways this year AND the reduction in capacity is what will kill FO and Gold. I could be completely wrong but it feels like while the gross Elite numbers will be down the reduced % of available seats will outstrip the reduction in elite gross numbers.

On your last point I do agree with the whole "I EARNED my MQM's" thing...we all get the benefit of the giveaways and indeed the CC if we want it. To say you deserve the UG because you earned it is ridiculous. If you get to Plat or DM you deserve the perks, period. I thought the post you were referring to was more about the statement that "I fly XX per year" and that I think IS relevant. The decisions that a 250k flyer makes regarding roll-over are completely different than the 125k flyer.

florin

I thought pbarnette made a fair statement and I agreed with it.

Last year, as a NW Plat I was one of many Plats who missed a DTW-SFO UG on a Sunday. I totally expected that and I didn't sweat it. I'm sure for some it can be frustrating to be one of so many Plats on the same flight, and this thread can tempt some to rant about the number of plats. That's what pbarnette said and I agreed.

The second point that I agree with is about people wanting more benefits, higher priority, etc based on THEIR travel pattern.

Listing the status is irrelevant, IMO. It's about wanting a program that rewards one individual travel pattern over the others. I've seen this discussion many times on FT. Someone who makes Plat on 5 flights in J saying they deserve more than someone who makes Plat on 8 flights in Y. (The premise here is that their company/client paid more.) Someone else can argue that those who acquire status on segments are unfairly treated. So on and so forth. I think the point that pbarnette made is valid. It's easy consider yourself better than the others, more Plat or more Diamond than the others... some people here do it and I disagree.

The Medallion criteria is very clearly set forth; everyone knows what you need to qualify. There are a number of ways a particular status can be achieved. People asking for criteria be tailored to better match themselves while better excluding others want to have status AND nobody else to have it. I disagree with that sort of attitude.

pbarnette

I guess it just comes down to what you view the purposes of the elite come-ons were. I know that they were an attempt to drive traffic in a weak time, but I also suspect that the airlines have a target % or # of elites that they want in the program at any given time and that these promos were run with that in mind. To some extent, it comes down to whether you think elite benefits are about enticing fliers to fly you, or to raise the switching costs for those that already do - I suspect that the second motive may eclipse the first.

I guess I also think the downturn in traffic (particularly in high-earning J & F fares) will have a more significant impact than some and so am simply not worried at this point.

dean1121

Thanks Avid, Glad you get my point.
I'm not complaining about UG % but the fact that a Top tier was created for those that fly the most and that it maybe diluted some what because of rollover.

To the other point, it's not an "I'm better then you because I'm a DM" thing at all. As adults I think we should be beyond that kind of thinking. I'm not better than anyone but a FF program was created for "frequent Flyers" and those that fly really frequently should have some benefits that others do not.

Great reading on this post though.

dean1121

Thought I would revive this old thread of mine. Rollover miles just posted to my account. With 130K rolled over and a trip to SYD in J I know stand at just under 150K MQM's on Jan 15th.

Again, my rational is set out below and I am not sure DM is going to be the exclusive benefit I was hoping for when it was announced.

With EP on the way out (not that I was one) it seems that for really FF we will be fighting it out with all the rolled-over inflated elites for domestic upgrades with is the main benefit of the DL program IMHO.

Now all we need is some ridiculous double/tripple promo to inflate even more.

Just ranting