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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>]

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Old Jan 16, 2017, 10:23 am
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What is EMV?
EMV is a standard for smart (or integrated-circuit, or chip) cards and the devices that can accept them. The standards are maintained by EMVCo and based on ISO 7816 (or ISO 14443 for contactless).

These cards come in two flavours: contact and contactless. Examples below:
----------------------------------------------------------

Notice the contactless indicator on the right-hand side (it looks like a sideways Wi-Fi symbol). It may also be found on the back of the card (for example, on the back of the new Costco credit card).


Where can I get a chip card?

Hawaiian717 operates a website with crowd-sourced information about various cards. You can adjust the search parameters to see cards with contactless, have PIN-primary authentication, etc.

Which businesses accept chip cards?

tmiw operates a website, also primarily crowd-sourced, that tracks chip-enabled merchants on a map. You can see if a merchant supports PIN, contactless, Quick Chip, et al.

Why doesn't my chip card ask for a PIN?

This is likely because you have a signature-preferring card. At this time, PIN-preferring cards issued in the US are rare. Not many financial institutions offer them; most of them instead provide Chip-and-Signature cards, which are programmed to prefer signature over PIN, if the card supports PIN at all.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?

To the cardholder, the only major difference is how they authenticate themselves at the point of sale. The cardholder inserts their card as normal; instead of signing a screen or receipt, they will be asked to enter their PIN on the keypad.

[spoiler]

A few financial institutions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees.

Why no PIN? (cont.)
American debit cards are unique because they are psuedo-PIN-preferring cards. which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN? (cont.)

Most cards issued in the US are programmed to prefer signature, so save very few instances, they will prompt for a signature (unless the merchant sets a signature waiver). A PIN may be necessary in countries with mostly PIN-preferring cards when using unattended terminals (such as pay-at-the-pump or mass transit). If the card has a PIN for backup verification or ATMs, then that PIN should work. Otherwise, the card will be rejected. If the card is rejected, then either a.) the transaction must be performed by an attendant or b.) an alternative payment method will be required.

Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM (Cardholder Verification Method) as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.


I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.


There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote its capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.

In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s, and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the de-facto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>]

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Old May 23, 2019, 7:56 pm
  #5161  
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Originally Posted by HotelHacker
Is that really what is going on? I always thought it was the merchants themselves adding this charge on. Definitely seems like some do at least.
Most do add it themselves. However, I remember reading about one that auto-adds the fee (though I can't seem to find it at the moment).
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Old May 25, 2019, 9:53 am
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Originally Posted by tmiw
Most do add it themselves. However, I remember reading about one that auto-adds the fee (though I can't seem to find it at the moment).
I can’t remember what it was called at the moment either, but Cotixan (at least the one on Clairemont Mesa Blvd) started using recently. Had professionally printed stickers at the drive through and the surcharge was listed separately on the credit card receipt.
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Old May 25, 2019, 12:58 pm
  #5163  
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Originally Posted by Hawaiian717
I can’t remember what it was called at the moment either, but Cotixan (at least the one on Clairemont Mesa Blvd) started using recently. Had professionally printed stickers at the drive through and the surcharge was listed separately on the credit card receipt.
That's unfortunate. I know they've had a $5 minimum for a while (which I'm okay with) but if they're now applying surcharges to everything, it's definitely a downgrade. I guess they have to pay for their new building* somehow.

* They're currently building a new location about a half block down the street from the one by my house that they're eventually going to move to.
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Old May 25, 2019, 3:10 pm
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There has to be a clear sign and notification before the charge is made. The surcharge fee is also supposed to be itemized on the card receipt I think too. I believe there is also a difference in credit versus debit (even if debit is ran as credit) in surcharge allowance.

Both Visa and MC do work through complaint submissions and pass then on to the merchant acquirer for resolution if the surcharge transparency process was not done properly. However, it does seem to be clear that surcharge acceptance by Visa and MC is becoming a lot more normal. I suspect the networks are still expecting customer friction to stop such moves, but the cash or debit/credit same price is definitely decreasing with smaller businesses. If a business works through the policies, they can effectively zero out their payment processing costs.
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Old May 25, 2019, 5:02 pm
  #5165  
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Originally Posted by rasheed
There has to be a clear sign and notification before the charge is made. The surcharge fee is also supposed to be itemized on the card receipt I think too. I believe there is also a difference in credit versus debit (even if debit is ran as credit) in surcharge allowance.

Both Visa and MC do work through complaint submissions and pass then on to the merchant acquirer for resolution if the surcharge transparency process was not done properly. However, it does seem to be clear that surcharge acceptance by Visa and MC is becoming a lot more normal. I suspect the networks are still expecting customer friction to stop such moves, but the cash or debit/credit same price is definitely decreasing with smaller businesses. If a business works through the policies, they can effectively zero out their payment processing costs.
The problem is that almost none of the instances of surcharging or minimums that I've seen actually follow card network rules. Most commonly, it's applied for all cards and not just for credit cards. Fortunately, they do mention the minimum or surcharge (for the most part).

Also, I wouldn't call surcharges "normal". Otherwise, Kroger, Walmart and all of the other major merchants that have been fighting Visa/MC on interchange would have imposed them by now. The one possible exception that might be argued is "normal" is with gas stations--and that's because they've been doing the cash discount thing long before surcharges explicitly became allowed. (Additionally, they seem to actually follow the surcharging rules for the most part and only apply them to credit cards/explicitly mention the higher per-gallon amount if a credit card's used. This might be why people are more okay with them there compared to other merchants.)

BTW, one positive of terminals/POSes that auto-apply surcharges is that they actually help improve merchant compliance. Of course, that relies on merchants disclosing the existence of a surcharge in the first place.
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Old May 25, 2019, 8:37 pm
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Our local In N Out recently enabled contactless BTW.
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Old May 27, 2019, 9:25 am
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I can't think the "Credit Card Fee" is helping businesses out any. I don't have the patience for it anymore and if I see that posted then I'm not buying. I guess they get enough people that don't care, but I can't bring myself to support a business that can't support itself, probably due to bad accounting or whatever else.

One of the biggest offenders is food trucks. They already charge inflated prices to begin with. If a sandwich is $18, tell me how a 50¢--$1 "card processing fee" makes any sense?

Another gripe, calling it a "cash discount" is a flat-out lie, I used a vending machine at a hotel in San Francisco and there was no cash option. "Credit Only." But it still added some 3¢ "mystery fee" at the end that wasn't posted anywhere and certainly wasn't in the price. I had half a mind to rebuke the entire charge for that but I do have better things to do.

Bottom line is, if you charge "card fees," "healthcare fees." "paying-our-employees fees," or whatever else you like to call it, don't count on me coming there.
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Old May 27, 2019, 12:04 pm
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Originally Posted by HotelHacker
Bottom line is, if you charge "card fees," "healthcare fees." "paying-our-employees fees," or whatever else you like to call it, don't count on me coming there.
And most of those food trucks, etc. still have the audacity to request tips. If I see something that that, I'm not tipping. I also have an inclination to reduce any gratuities by the same percentage whenever I see the health insurance or living wage fee.
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Old May 27, 2019, 4:23 pm
  #5169  
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Originally Posted by HotelHacker
I can't think the "Credit Card Fee" is helping businesses out any. I don't have the patience for it anymore and if I see that posted then I'm not buying. I guess they get enough people that don't care, but I can't bring myself to support a business that can't support itself, probably due to bad accounting or whatever else.
It depends on the business. I think if you're popular enough, you can probably get away with surcharges and minimums (as long as they're reasonable and seem to just cover their expenses). If you're already having trouble, I don't think there's nearly as much leeway.

Also, I suspect if merchants actually followed the rules on those, there'd be fewer complaints. Most people carry a debit card around with them as well as one or more credit cards, after all, so the situation would be more similar to, say, AmEx not being accepted.

Originally Posted by HotelHacker
Another gripe, calling it a "cash discount" is a flat-out lie
Oh, it's effectively the same no matter what you call it. People seem to be more accepting of cash discount, though, probably because you can choose to pay less if you pay in cash (vs. not wanting to pay more to not pay in such).
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Old May 27, 2019, 5:03 pm
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Originally Posted by tmiw
Oh, it's effectively the same no matter what you call it. People seem to be more accepting of cash discount, though, probably because you can choose to pay less if you pay in cash (vs. not wanting to pay more to not pay in such).
American merchants will stop at nothing to cut corners to squeeze every little penny of profit possible.

American merchants want us to have a backwards payment system, whether that would be by driving us nuts to the point where we use cash (stupid and outdated), or by keeping their swipe only equipment and investing the bare minimum into technology at the point of sale. We're well past the point where 99% of payment terminals (including self kiosks) should be at least EMV compliant). It's been what, almost 4 years? The "backlog" excuse no longer exists... It's merchant laziness and thriftiness now.

This country will never have more advanced technology than all other nations because of businesses. Some still use a FAX machine and Windows 7 for god sakes. Think we'll be the first country with widespread 5G or electric cars? Think again. Same idea.
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Old May 27, 2019, 5:45 pm
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I've just returned from my first trip to Canada in many, many years. It is quite an interesting system they have going on. Makes you wonder - why is it not possible here?

Pretty much every restaurant I've been to, the waiter comes back with a hand-held card terminal and you do everything on it - choose to tip, and whether to do it in $ or as %. So the experience is similar to the one in Europe, but you do a bit more, since tipping is involved. Still, this proves pay at the table to be very possible and easy - and certainly more 21st century than taking the card away and bringing it back.

It also seems like most restaurants had the same brand and the same looking terminal - so there is a lot of standarization going on.
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Old May 27, 2019, 6:47 pm
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Originally Posted by Barciur
I've just returned from my first trip to Canada in many, many years. It is quite an interesting system they have going on. Makes you wonder - why is it not possible here?

Pretty much every restaurant I've been to, the waiter comes back with a hand-held card terminal and you do everything on it - choose to tip, and whether to do it in $ or as %. So the experience is similar to the one in Europe, but you do a bit more, since tipping is involved. Still, this proves pay at the table to be very possible and easy - and certainly more 21st century than taking the card away and bringing it back.

It also seems like most restaurants had the same brand and the same looking terminal - so there is a lot of standarization going on.
Canada mostly gets their terminals from the bank, especially restaurants.
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Old May 27, 2019, 6:55 pm
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Originally Posted by mikesyr18
American merchants will stop at nothing to cut corners to squeeze every little penny of profit possible.

American merchants want us to have a backwards payment system, whether that would be by driving us nuts to the point where we use cash (stupid and outdated), or by keeping their swipe only equipment and investing the bare minimum into technology at the point of sale. We're well past the point where 99% of payment terminals (including self kiosks) should be at least EMV compliant). It's been what, almost 4 years? The "backlog" excuse no longer exists... It's merchant laziness and thriftiness now.

This country will never have more advanced technology than all other nations because of businesses. Some still use a FAX machine and Windows 7 for god sakes. Think we'll be the first country with widespread 5G or electric cars? Think again. Same idea.
I agree to a point, however, not even Europe is at 99% migration. They are much further than we are, but still haven't got to 99-100%.

EMV is a proven, mature technology. Not the same can be said for everything.

Originally Posted by Barciur
I've just returned from my first trip to Canada in many, many years. It is quite an interesting system they have going on. Makes you wonder - why is it not possible here?

Pretty much every restaurant I've been to, the waiter comes back with a hand-held card terminal and you do everything on it - choose to tip, and whether to do it in $ or as %. So the experience is similar to the one in Europe, but you do a bit more, since tipping is involved. Still, this proves pay at the table to be very possible and easy - and certainly more 21st century than taking the card away and bringing it back.

It also seems like most restaurants had the same brand and the same looking terminal - so there is a lot of standarization going on.
Sounds nice. I think some have said the standardization of things in Canada is largely to do with how their debit card system works, but I have no idea. Did you see what kind of terminal it was? I remember back in the day in Europe, it seemed that Verifone terminals were everywhere, but you would still see others from time to time.
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Old May 27, 2019, 10:19 pm
  #5174  
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Originally Posted by mikesyr18
American merchants will stop at nothing to cut corners to squeeze every little penny of profit possible.
Welcome to capitalism.

Originally Posted by mikesyr18
American merchants want us to have a backwards payment system, whether that would be by driving us nuts to the point where we use cash (stupid and outdated)
There is something to be said for at least accepting cash. And as mentioned in the other thread, interchange is apparently enough of an issue for larger stores to try going their own way on mobile payments.

Originally Posted by mikesyr18
The "backlog" excuse no longer exists
We sure about that? I mean, there is the 2020 AFD liability shift coming up and all of the merchants that are having to certify for EMV contactless now that it's basically mandatory (if you accept contactless at all).

Plus, there are still places like Coffee Bean that have had EMV capable terminals for years now and have yet to enable EMV. I don't think "accepting contactless" is the sole reason for buying them because otherwise, why not go with something like what Tender Greens, Jamba Juice (pre-EMV) and others have done?

Originally Posted by Barciur
I've just returned from my first trip to Canada in many, many years. It is quite an interesting system they have going on. Makes you wonder - why is it not possible here?
It's possible, just apparently unwanted by most. We've speculated on the reasons here on occasion but I think it boils down to chip and signature making the extra expense hard to justify (with a possible bit of customer dislike thrown in). It's much easier to force pay at the table when taking cards away becomes difficult (e.g. needing PIN), especially if that ends up being the case at every restaurant (making customer avoidance of such places impossible).

Anyway, I was hoping that mobile wallets would have been that catalyst, but it looks like it won't be. And contactless cards themselves might not be enough, either, considering tip adjust rules with that form of payment.

Originally Posted by HotelHacker
I agree to a point, however, not even Europe is at 99% migration. They are much further than we are, but still haven't got to 99-100%.
97-98% of card present transactions in Europe per EMVco's official stats.
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Old May 28, 2019, 3:05 am
  #5175  
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Last night in Budapest at dinner, server entered amount and​​​​ tip% before handing the terminal to me for PIN entry. Far more awkward than having me add the tip myself before finalizing. Apparently, from what 've read, unlike western Europe, Hungary is a tipping culture.
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