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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>]

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Old Jan 16, 2017, 10:23 am
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What is EMV?
EMV is a standard for smart (or integrated-circuit, or chip) cards and the devices that can accept them. The standards are maintained by EMVCo and based on ISO 7816 (or ISO 14443 for contactless).

These cards come in two flavours: contact and contactless. Examples below:
----------------------------------------------------------

Notice the contactless indicator on the right-hand side (it looks like a sideways Wi-Fi symbol). It may also be found on the back of the card (for example, on the back of the new Costco credit card).


Where can I get a chip card?

Hawaiian717 operates a website with crowd-sourced information about various cards. You can adjust the search parameters to see cards with contactless, have PIN-primary authentication, etc.

Which businesses accept chip cards?

tmiw operates a website, also primarily crowd-sourced, that tracks chip-enabled merchants on a map. You can see if a merchant supports PIN, contactless, Quick Chip, et al.

Why doesn't my chip card ask for a PIN?

This is likely because you have a signature-preferring card. At this time, PIN-preferring cards issued in the US are rare. Not many financial institutions offer them; most of them instead provide Chip-and-Signature cards, which are programmed to prefer signature over PIN, if the card supports PIN at all.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?

To the cardholder, the only major difference is how they authenticate themselves at the point of sale. The cardholder inserts their card as normal; instead of signing a screen or receipt, they will be asked to enter their PIN on the keypad.

[spoiler]

A few financial institutions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees.

Why no PIN? (cont.)
American debit cards are unique because they are psuedo-PIN-preferring cards. which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN? (cont.)

Most cards issued in the US are programmed to prefer signature, so save very few instances, they will prompt for a signature (unless the merchant sets a signature waiver). A PIN may be necessary in countries with mostly PIN-preferring cards when using unattended terminals (such as pay-at-the-pump or mass transit). If the card has a PIN for backup verification or ATMs, then that PIN should work. Otherwise, the card will be rejected. If the card is rejected, then either a.) the transaction must be performed by an attendant or b.) an alternative payment method will be required.

Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM (Cardholder Verification Method) as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.


I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.


There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote its capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.

In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s, and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the de-facto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>]

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Old May 8, 2019, 8:22 pm
  #5101  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw
Is it possible that they're in the process of switching? It'd explain why the second San Diego location doesn't have the EMV/NFC reader, anyway--no point in getting it when you're just going to swap the entire POS out in a few months.
is it a franchise? If so that might be the reason. They all just do what they want. I think the one over here when I went, had one of those off-the-shelf things (Clover/Square or something like it)

And speaking of "something like it," a Japanese place I go to recently got some new phone-based thing I've never seen before (SumTotal, I think it was called?) Didn't try the contactless but it looked like a huge Square puck.
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Old May 8, 2019, 8:57 pm
  #5102  
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Originally Posted by HotelHacker
is it a franchise? If so that might be the reason. They all just do what they want. I think the one over here when I went, had one of those off-the-shelf things (Clover/Square or something like it)

And speaking of "something like it," a Japanese place I go to recently got some new phone-based thing I've never seen before (SumTotal, I think it was called?) Didn't try the contactless but it looked like a huge Square puck.
Actually, it looks like they didn't start franchising until last month. Even then, it's not necessarily a given that they won't mandate some form of POS system (like what McDonald's and Jersey Mike's do).
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Old May 10, 2019, 12:14 am
  #5103  
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I just noticed the following at a local mall for the first time today:



I can't seem to find much online about it, though. I suspect it's going to be much like other similar products in that you'll likely be better off just paying the 3% FTF with a standard debit or credit card. (Heck, it might not even be PIN preferring, as I discovered the hard way with the Andrews FCU prepaid card a while ago.)
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Old May 10, 2019, 11:31 am
  #5104  
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Looks like FedEx does Quick Chip per cardpeek ($1 cryptogram amount). This despite the terminal behaving just like QC wasn't there (in that the card couldn't be removed until it said "approved" and that the terminal didn't activate until the employee pushed the button on their end). However, the terminal did use encrypted offline PIN.

Speaking of which, the Vons/Safeway gas pumps apparently don't support encrypted offline PIN; cardpeek shows that plaintext PIN was used for those. Kinda weird considering that online PIN definitely works there, as shown by my usage of the Arrival+ before the PIN actually got pushed to the card.
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Old May 11, 2019, 12:39 pm
  #5105  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw
Looks like Logix FCU's cards might be PIN preferring (or at least support PIN for purchases).
Interesting. I still think SDFCU 2% cash back is a better option, but I’m glad to see that there are a few institutions putting the choice in chip and choice.
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Old May 11, 2019, 4:27 pm
  #5106  
 
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Went to a pizza shop art the Turning Stone Resort and Casino. Cashier asks for ID and then swipes your card for you on a cheap built into the monitor reader.

1) Get a stand alone card reader.
2) If you're worried about fraud that much, get a chip reader.
3) Nobody steals credit card information to get a $3 slice of pizza.
4) You're not allowed to ask for ID.

Classic American stupidity at the POS.
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Old May 11, 2019, 5:04 pm
  #5107  
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Originally Posted by bullfrog
Interesting. I still think SDFCU 2% cash back is a better option, but I’m glad to see that there are a few institutions putting the choice in chip and choice.
I reread my original post and realized that offline PIN is still possible if changing it via IVR. Which brings up the point of how the few issuers bothering with PIN preference (as an option or otherwise) are going to handle it long term in the US. I mean, the majority of new EMV rollouts seemingly use Quick Chip, so it's very possible PIN changes will eventually almost never be pushed to cards. Will issuers just disallow PIN changes altogether (like what UNFCU does for credit cards)? Start preferring online PIN instead and hope that domestic merchants that support PIN at all will just use that? Require ATM visits (like what BMO Harris/Diners Club do), with the confusion surrounding cash advance fees, etc. that'll cause? Or simply stop offering PIN preference as an option altogether (possibly keeping PIN support around mainly for foreign unattended terminals that can't handle transactions without CVM--in other words, ranked last on the CVM list)?

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the last option is what ends up happening in the end for many of these issuers. Or possibly defaulting to signature preference on initial app, with the ability to switch to PIN preference later (and the accompanying disclaimers about how the PIN can't be changed, etc.) Especially since Visa's really pushing contactless hard and all.

Originally Posted by mikesyr18
Nobody steals credit card information to get a $3 slice of pizza.
If that were true, no coffee shop or other merchant with large numbers of low-value transactions would have bothered with EMV. Which, of course, hasn't been the case for the most part.
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Old May 11, 2019, 5:11 pm
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Originally Posted by tmiw
...
If that were true, no coffee shop or other merchant with large numbers of low-value transactions would have bothered with EMV. Which, of course, hasn't been the case for the most part.
They should be installing EMV simply because magnetic stripe is an ancient technology that needs to go away.

It's like using a floppy disk in the era of blu-ray and digital subscriptions.

Get rid of the dumb large screens with swipe only card readers built into the side.
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Old May 11, 2019, 6:03 pm
  #5109  
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Originally Posted by mikesyr18
They should be installing EMV simply because magnetic stripe is an ancient technology that needs to go away.

It's like using a floppy disk in the era of blu-ray and digital subscriptions.

Get rid of the dumb large screens with swipe only card readers built into the side.
If it's not mandatory and they're willing to accept the fraud costs (not to mention no one asking for stuff like contactless), how is spending money to replace something that works justified to them?

(In other words, EMV probably should have been mandated. But that conversation will potentially go OMNI quickly.)

BTW, I thought casinos were high risk enough that they generally got in on EMV early on. At least the Indian casinos around here seem to have, anyway.
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Old May 11, 2019, 6:06 pm
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Originally Posted by tmiw
If it's not mandatory and they're willing to accept the fraud costs (not to mention no one asking for stuff like contactless), how is spending money to replace something that works justified to them?

(In other words, EMV probably should have been mandated. But that conversation will potentially go OMNI quickly.)

BTW, I thought casinos were high risk enough that they generally got in on EMV early on. At least the Indian casinos around here seem to have, anyway.
The Turning Stone is an Indian owned hotel/resort.

When you check in, they use the chip - but for everything else, it seems like it's swipe only. The weird thing is I used an ATM there earlier, and it failed to read the chip but asked me if I wanted to use the magnetic stripe instead. Weird.

I'm not mandated to have a digital subscription or an Xbox One X, but that doesn't mean I should own an N64 because I don't want to pay for it with my hard earned money. The more Americans resist the latest technology, the more we'll continue to get made fun of by the rest of the world.
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Old May 11, 2019, 8:26 pm
  #5111  
 
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ATMs are often iffy because they are not actually owned by the establishment, even if it has their logo on it.
Originally Posted by tmiw
I just noticed the following at a local mall for the first time today:

I can't seem to find much online about it, though. I suspect it's going to be much like other similar products in that you'll likely be better off just paying the 3% FTF with a standard debit or credit card. (Heck, it might not even be PIN preferring, as I discovered the hard way with the Andrews FCU prepaid card a while ago.)
The Cash Passport has been around a while. I think I found out back in 2007.
Here is the site, for the one in the picture:
https://www.multicurrencycashpassport.com/us
Pretty much all of the links appear to be broken so not much info to be had.

Originally Posted by tmiw
I reread my original post and realized that offline PIN is still possible if changing it via IVR. Which brings up the point of how the few issuers bothering with PIN preference (as an option or otherwise) are going to handle it long term in the US. I mean, the majority of new EMV rollouts seemingly use Quick Chip, so it's very possible PIN changes will eventually almost never be pushed to cards. Will issuers just disallow PIN changes altogether (like what UNFCU does for credit cards)? Start preferring online PIN instead and hope that domestic merchants that support PIN at all will just use that? Require ATM visits (like what BMO Harris/Diners Club do), with the confusion surrounding cash advance fees, etc. that'll cause? Or simply stop offering PIN preference as an option altogether (possibly keeping PIN support around mainly for foreign unattended terminals that can't handle transactions without CVM--in other words, ranked last on the CVM list)?

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the last option is what ends up happening in the end for many of these issuers. Or possibly defaulting to signature preference on initial app, with the ability to switch to PIN preference later (and the accompanying disclaimers about how the PIN can't be changed, etc.) Especially since Visa's really pushing contactless hard and all.



If that were true, no coffee shop or other merchant with large numbers of low-value transactions would have bothered with EMV. Which, of course, hasn't been the case for the most part.
I think (but have no way to know for real) that issues with non-PIN cards in places like Europe will eventually become a non-issue due to better standardization. Remember the US is not the only country with chip & sig cards, and supposedly you can also get them in Europe as well, so they're bound to show up sometime even in places where they aren't common. With that in mind I'm sure newer system designs will be able to handle them properly.

Not sure if it is news to anyone or not but McD's appears to have EMV contactless. The AID was on the receipt.
Also 7 Eleven doesn't do contactless. Thought they did but they don't anyway.
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Old May 11, 2019, 9:18 pm
  #5112  
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Originally Posted by mikesyr18
When you check in, they use the chip - but for everything else, it seems like it's swipe only. The weird thing is I used an ATM there earlier, and it failed to read the chip but asked me if I wanted to use the magnetic stripe instead. Weird.
Sounds like it's doing fallback like it should. Though maybe the chip reader and/or chip on the card should be cleaned to reduce the occurrence of that.

Originally Posted by mikesyr18
I'm not mandated to have a digital subscription or an Xbox One X, but that doesn't mean I should own an N64 because I don't want to pay for it with my hard earned money.
It's your choice to keep the N64 or buy a new console. A fair number of people even buy older consoles for preservation or to play old games. In other words, for their own enjoyment.

Meanwhile, buying a new terminal when the existing one isn't broken or costing them money from chargebacks could easily cost multiple hundreds of dollars, money that could have gone towards something else business-related. They should replace it, of course, but I get why some would hold off.

Originally Posted by HotelHacker
ATMs are often iffy because they are not actually owned by the establishment, even if it has their logo on it.
IIRC, for the Diners Club MC, you talk to a CS representative who triggers something on your account that causes the PIN you enter at an ATM to set the card's PIN. I believe you have to actually do a cash withdrawal transaction for the PIN to be pushed but I'm not sure if the fees/interest get refunded. I can see that being enough of an issue for people to hesitate in actually getting the PIN changed.

(Ideally there'd actually be specific PIN change options on ATMs. But since the US is de facto chip and signature anyway, most banks didn't bother implementing it at all--and the rest only implemented it for their own debit cards, which almost never have an offline PIN at all.)

Originally Posted by HotelHacker
The Cash Passport has been around a while. I think I found out back in 2007.
Here is the site, for the one in the picture:
https://www.multicurrencycashpassport.com/us
Pretty much all of the links appear to be broken so not much info to be had.
Wayback Machine to the rescue. Effective ~5% FTF currency conversion fee--just like Travelex's--so not/wasn't worth getting. There's also not much info on how the chip works, other than that the PIN can't be changed (which implies offline PIN is supported to some extent).

Originally Posted by HotelHacker
I think (but have no way to know for real) that issues with non-PIN cards in places like Europe will eventually become a non-issue due to better standardization. Remember the US is not the only country with chip & sig cards, and supposedly you can also get them in Europe as well, so they're bound to show up sometime even in places where they aren't common. With that in mind I'm sure newer system designs will be able to handle them properly.
I don't think the issue was ever really that US chip and signature cards didn't work at all. They work for attended terminals, but it can be more of a hassle due to signature being mandatory and actually checked. Additionally, there have been isolated instances of merchants prohibiting their use contrary to laws requiring otherwise.

The bigger issue is/was unattended terminals. This has gotten better too but there are still reports of failures here occasionally. Personally I like the convenience of PIN preferring cards but contactless is even more convenient (and likely much easier to obtain/use for the typical American, even if one has to do it from a phone or watch). My advice these days is basically to prioritize contactless and maybe get a card with PIN backup depending on where one is going. And even then, I suspect that the latter might not be necessary for most soon considering the upcoming card network mandates.

Originally Posted by HotelHacker
Not sure if it is news to anyone or not but McD's appears to have EMV contactless. The AID was on the receipt.
Also 7 Eleven doesn't do contactless. Thought they did but they don't anyway.
McDonald's has had EMV contactless for a while. It works pretty well too in my experience.

7-Eleven also accepts it except for the locations using MX915s (which only one that I know of around here does--Balboa and Convoy Street for those in SD). The location in question also has upgraded gas pumps without contactless readers, but AFAIK EMV isn't enabled outside yet.

EDIT: the above exception excludes Alon 7-Elevens, which use MX915s IIRC and worked fine with contactless as of late last year.

Last edited by tmiw; May 11, 2019 at 9:29 pm
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Old May 12, 2019, 1:38 am
  #5113  
 
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Originally Posted by mikesyr18

1) Get a stand alone card reader.
2) If you're worried about fraud that much, get a chip reader.
3) Nobody steals credit card information to get a $3 slice of pizza.
4) You're not allowed to ask for ID.
Merchants can request ID but not require ID as a condition of card acceptance for a properly signed Visa or Mastercard. I believe network rules for AmEx and Discover are more nebulous, but all networks discourage merchants from asking for ID since it causes customer inconvenience. I have refused to offer my ID upon request at a merchant recently with the cashier citing store policy since they are stubbornly still in non-EMV land.

Furthermore, now that I was recently the victim of attempted identity theft - the only thing that prevented the bad actor from opening an account in my name was having my reports frozen - I am extremely wary of giving out more information than the minimum required to complete the transaction. Would flashing a driver's license to a cashier at a food court increase that risk? Unlikely, but why introduce any potential additional risk?
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Old May 12, 2019, 6:58 am
  #5114  
 
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Originally Posted by Majuki
Merchants can request ID but not require ID as a condition of card acceptance for a properly signed Visa or Mastercard. I believe network rules for AmEx and Discover are more nebulous, but all networks discourage merchants from asking for ID since it causes customer inconvenience. I have refused to offer my ID upon request at a merchant recently with the cashier citing store policy since they are stubbornly still in non-EMV land.

Furthermore, now that I was recently the victim of attempted identity theft - the only thing that prevented the bad actor from opening an account in my name was having my reports frozen - I am extremely wary of giving out more information than the minimum required to complete the transaction. Would flashing a driver's license to a cashier at a food court increase that risk? Unlikely, but why introduce any potential additional risk?
I was using an AMEX to pay.

I think it's funny how the networks discourage the use but then "store policy" somehow prevails.

A simple store policy of "your chip card doesn't work, use another one" is the ultimate fraud protection (other than digital wallet of course). You don't take magnetic stripe only and then act like you're worried about fraud by asking everyone for their ID. I wish everyone would just refuse or walk away when asked for ID when paying with a card - it's not like there aren't a bunch of other merchants within feet away.
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Old May 12, 2019, 7:25 am
  #5115  
 
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Originally Posted by mikesyr18
I wish everyone would just refuse or walk away when asked for ID when paying with a card - it's not like there aren't a bunch of other merchants within feet away.
Did you walk away from that three dollar pizza slice purchase?
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