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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>]

Old Jan 16, 2017, 11:23 am
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What is EMV?
EMV is a standard for smart (or integrated-circuit, or chip) cards and the devices that can accept them. The standards are maintained by EMVCo and based on ISO 7816 (or ISO 14443 for contactless).

These cards come in two flavours: contact and contactless. Examples below:
----------------------------------------------------------

Notice the contactless indicator on the right-hand side (it looks like a sideways Wi-Fi symbol). It may also be found on the back of the card (for example, on the back of the new Costco credit card).


Where can I get a chip card?

Hawaiian717 operates a website with crowd-sourced information about various cards. You can adjust the search parameters to see cards with contactless, have PIN-primary authentication, etc.

Which businesses accept chip cards?

tmiw operates a website, also primarily crowd-sourced, that tracks chip-enabled merchants on a map. You can see if a merchant supports PIN, contactless, Quick Chip, et al.

Why doesn't my chip card ask for a PIN?

This is likely because you have a signature-preferring card. At this time, PIN-preferring cards issued in the US are rare. Not many financial institutions offer them; most of them instead provide Chip-and-Signature cards, which are programmed to prefer signature over PIN, if the card supports PIN at all.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?

To the cardholder, the only major difference is how they authenticate themselves at the point of sale. The cardholder inserts their card as normal; instead of signing a screen or receipt, they will be asked to enter their PIN on the keypad.

[spoiler]

A few financial institutions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees.

Why no PIN? (cont.)
American debit cards are unique because they are psuedo-PIN-preferring cards. which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN? (cont.)

Most cards issued in the US are programmed to prefer signature, so save very few instances, they will prompt for a signature (unless the merchant sets a signature waiver). A PIN may be necessary in countries with mostly PIN-preferring cards when using unattended terminals (such as pay-at-the-pump or mass transit). If the card has a PIN for backup verification or ATMs, then that PIN should work. Otherwise, the card will be rejected. If the card is rejected, then either a.) the transaction must be performed by an attendant or b.) an alternative payment method will be required.

Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM (Cardholder Verification Method) as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.


I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.


There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote its capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.

In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s, and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the de-facto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>]

Old Jan 12, 2017, 11:06 pm
  #136  
 
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Originally Posted by HotelHacker
Yeah, nothing like that at the locations here. I did go to the combined Baskin Robbins/Togos off of Aero recently and they moved their terminal to the lower part of the counter but still no EMV. Probably just so people could enter PINs for Debit.

The Baskin Robbins side had a VX915 but with EMV disabled.

Interesting to see the use of wireless terminals for delivery. I wonder if pizza places will use those for deliveries as well.

The other location has EMV enabled on their terminal but the terminal is behind the counter. Maybe it is PIN-disabled.

The 2 Togos here just have a standalone CC terminal and a basic Office Depot cash register.



Curious question, if the shops can disable PIN and run cards anyway, why don't they all?



I remember during the first Contactless wave Jack in the Box and Whataburger installed contactless readers for outside. I think JITB had ones that also had a magstripe reader in it. Never tried that though. Haven't seen one with EMV so not sure if we'll see any more of that.

Another issue I'm curious about is Sonic drive-ins. They had those Hypercom terminals installed into the menu boards. I'm wondering if they ever go to EMV they might just use wireless terminals. The Hypercom thing was probably custom made for them.
Did your local Sonic not upgrade yet? The new readers have large touchscreen menu boards, and IDTech readers with EMV capability (alas not enabled yet) and a Micros backend. Some even have contactless readers as well. Those Hypercom things they used to use were garbage and glad as these new ones are much better. The large touchscreen makes it easy to see your order as it's being rung up. The downside is that if you pay cash, it now requires you to hit a button indicating so (likewise for card and some stupid sonic app). I attached a picture, the touchscreen is in the middle. The card reader is EMV capable. More than likely signature only once EMV is enabled.

As for JITB, looks like they're going for Ingenico iPP350s.
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Old Jan 12, 2017, 11:53 pm
  #137  
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Originally Posted by HotelHacker
Interesting to see the use of wireless terminals for delivery. I wonder if pizza places will use those for deliveries as well.
I'm thinking they'll do what they do now: card not present transactions if you want to pay before the driver arrives, cash-only otherwise. I could be wrong though.

Originally Posted by HotelHacker
Curious question, if the shops can disable PIN and run cards anyway, why don't they all?
It depends on the merchant processor, not the stores themselves. Most probably haven't bothered yet due to cards generally being chip and signature anyway, but I can see them doing so eventually.
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Old Jan 13, 2017, 1:10 am
  #138  
 
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Originally Posted by RedLight2015
Did your local Sonic not upgrade yet? The new readers have large touchscreen menu boards, and IDTech readers with EMV capability (alas not enabled yet) and a Micros backend. Some even have contactless readers as well. Those Hypercom things they used to use were garbage and glad as these new ones are much better. The large touchscreen makes it easy to see your order as it's being rung up. The downside is that if you pay cash, it now requires you to hit a button indicating so (likewise for card and some stupid sonic app). I attached a picture, the touchscreen is in the middle. The card reader is EMV capable. More than likely signature only once EMV is enabled.

As for JITB, looks like they're going for Ingenico iPP350s.
Looks cool, haven't been to Sonic in a few years. Those Hypercom units were cool when they were new but their prime time passed. Looks like no PIN entry buttons at all so no PIN support there. Weird considering the old ones could do it for Debit, presumably. Not a lot of Sonics out here but I do know of one location so will have to add it to the list of places to check out.
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Old Jan 14, 2017, 1:57 am
  #139  
 
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Originally Posted by RedLight2015
Did your local Sonic not upgrade yet? The new readers have large touchscreen menu boards, and IDTech readers with EMV capability (alas not enabled yet) and a Micros backend. Some even have contactless readers as well. Those Hypercom things they used to use were garbage and glad as these new ones are much better. The large touchscreen makes it easy to see your order as it's being rung up. The downside is that if you pay cash, it now requires you to hit a button indicating so (likewise for card and some stupid sonic app). I attached a picture, the touchscreen is in the middle. The card reader is EMV capable. More than likely signature only once EMV is enabled.

As for JITB, looks like they're going for Ingenico iPP350s.
Have you seen iPP350's at a Jack In The Box location yet? Would be nice for them to finally get EMV and maybe even contactless! ^
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Old Jan 14, 2017, 9:13 am
  #140  
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Originally Posted by scibot
Have you seen iPP350's at a Jack In The Box location yet? Would be nice for them to finally get EMV and maybe even contactless! ^
The one at my local airport has an iPP320 but only for their self-service kiosk.
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Old Jan 15, 2017, 10:00 am
  #141  
 
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Hey guys, long time lurker first time poster to this thread. I travel overseas all the time for work (often to London). Whenever I'm in Europe I run into two issues... Chip & Pin vs Signature and the issues with Apple/Android Pay.

For example, on my last trip to London, neither my Visa or my Amex were accepted in the tube using Apple or Android pay... something to do with EMV Offline not being supported by these cards.

My wife went to nothern Sweden and was unable to get her rental car at the unattended Kiosk due to the fact our Chase cards are Chip/Signature rather than Chip & pin. In Germany, I faced numerous headaches due to the fact my credit cards didn't take pins... mostly having to wait for a "supervisor" to show up to help... or not being able to pay at the pump.

As a result of this thread, I've done two things:
1. I enabled the Pin on my corporate Amex (We'll have to see if that actually works). I hope this will save me having to wait for a "Supervisor" to come and do the signature transaction every time.
2. I've ordered a First Tech Credit union Mastercard and activated it. I just tested the First Tech card at a local CVS and it said PIN Verified online on the receipt so I was fairly excited. I've also added the card to Android Pay. I'm hoping this card works on the London Underground with Android Pay.
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Old Jan 15, 2017, 11:05 am
  #142  
 
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Originally Posted by LordHamster
2. I've ordered a First Tech Credit union Mastercard and activated it. I just tested the First Tech card at a local CVS and it said PIN Verified online on the receipt so I was fairly excited. I've also added the card to Android Pay. I'm hoping this card works on the London Underground with Android Pay.
How long did it take you to receive the First Tech card?
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Old Jan 15, 2017, 11:45 am
  #143  
 
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Originally Posted by dmapr
How long did it take you to receive the First Tech card?
I ordered it on Jan 3rd, got a call same day saying it was approved. On the 10th I got my PIN in the mail, card didn't show till yesterday (Jan14).

To activate the chip and pin I did my first transaction at Target. I was not asked to sign or enter a pin for the $38 transaction but I did insert the card into their reader. Second transaction was today at CVS for $2.39 and I was asked for my PIN, so I'm quite happy.

Activating Android pay was a bit akward on it, I had to add the card like my others, but then Android pay asked me to call the bank to complete the Android pay activation. 3 min after my call, the card was finally added to my Android pay wallet. I have not yet added it to apple pay, so I don't know if that will work right away or require a second call.
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Old Jan 15, 2017, 12:16 pm
  #144  
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Originally Posted by LordHamster
Second transaction was today at CVS for $2.39 and I was asked for my PIN, so I'm quite happy.
Sounds like CVS is finally in compliance with MC rules again? (They were behaving like Target with small amounts before.)
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Old Jan 15, 2017, 12:52 pm
  #145  
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Originally Posted by LordHamster
Hey guys, long time lurker first time poster to this thread. I travel overseas all the time for work (often to London). Whenever I'm in Europe I run into two issues... Chip & Pin vs Signature and the issues with Apple/Android Pay.

For example, on my last trip to London, neither my Visa or my Amex were accepted in the tube using Apple or Android pay... something to do with EMV Offline not being supported by these cards.

My wife went to nothern Sweden and was unable to get her rental car at the unattended Kiosk due to the fact our Chase cards are Chip/Signature rather than Chip & pin. In Germany, I faced numerous headaches due to the fact my credit cards didn't take pins... mostly having to wait for a "supervisor" to show up to help... or not being able to pay at the pump.

As a result of this thread, I've done two things:
1. I enabled the Pin on my corporate Amex (We'll have to see if that actually works). I hope this will save me having to wait for a "Supervisor" to come and do the signature transaction every time.
2. I've ordered a First Tech Credit union Mastercard and activated it. I just tested the First Tech card at a local CVS and it said PIN Verified online on the receipt so I was fairly excited. I've also added the card to Android Pay. I'm hoping this card works on the London Underground with Android Pay.
I thought Apple and TFL made a big deal about Apple Pay support in the Tube about a year ago.

It's dependent on the card?

Anyone else try using Apple Pay on the Underground or buses?
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Old Jan 15, 2017, 1:02 pm
  #146  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw
Sounds like CVS is finally in compliance with MC rules again? (They were behaving like Target with small amounts before.)
At least with credit cards. They now default to (US) Debit AID with PIN bypass, even for Mastercard. I also had to exchange something, and when processing the difference refund, PIN was bypassed even with global AID being selected for the transaction (since they don't support debit returns).
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Old Jan 15, 2017, 1:13 pm
  #147  
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Originally Posted by wco81
I thought Apple and TFL made a big deal about Apple Pay support in the Tube about a year ago.

It's dependent on the card?

Anyone else try using Apple Pay on the Underground or buses?
AmEx is MSD-only for their US cards on Apple/Android Pay, while Visa doesn't require offline support for US cards. Mastercard should work though because both EMV contactless and offline support are there.

Originally Posted by emmanuel_t
At least with credit cards. They now default to (US) Debit AID with PIN bypass, even for Mastercard. I also had to exchange something, and when processing the difference refund, PIN was bypassed even with global AID being selected for the transaction (since they don't support debit returns).
No cashback prompt at least?
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Old Jan 15, 2017, 1:16 pm
  #148  
 
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Originally Posted by tmiw
No cashback prompt at least?
Should have clarified. They prompt for cashback first, and if no cashback is requested, then the terminal will alow the PIN field to be left blank.
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Old Jan 15, 2017, 1:50 pm
  #149  
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Originally Posted by emmanuel_t
Should have clarified. They prompt for cashback first, and if no cashback is requested, then the terminal will alow the PIN field to be left blank.
Oh, so they're no longer explicitly asking debit/credit. I'm not surprised since the Fed clarified recently that routing decisions are up to the merchant.
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Old Jan 15, 2017, 2:26 pm
  #150  
 
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Originally Posted by wco81
I thought Apple and TFL made a big deal about Apple Pay support in the Tube about a year ago.

It's dependent on the card?

Anyone else try using Apple Pay on the Underground or buses?
I've tried both Apple and Android Pay fairly recently, and neither worked on the Tube or buses with either my Chase Presidential Plus (Visa) or my Corporate Amex Plat.

Both of those cards worked just fine everywhere else with Apple/Android Pay, but like I said were annoying to use with the Chip/Signature mode. Trying to check out at a convenience store's self checkout was a giant pain if they didn't support contactless. Each time I'd have the ol' flashing siren "Idiot needs help" light come on... and have to wait a good 5-10 min for them to figure out what to do.
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