Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Mar 19, 2015, 1:54 pm
#1756
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,068
Mar 19, 2015, 7:25 pm
#1757
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 257
Was in Seoul last week and went on the JSA tour. Travel agency quoted me ticket price in KRW and ran my credit card, but when they gave me the receipt to sign it was in USD. Sneaky. Didn't even give me the option upfront. I promptly asked them to charge me in KRW instead so they reversed the original charge. I was worried that the reversal would go through as KRW whereas the initial charge was in USD so I'd eat some currency conversion fee anyway, but both charges were in fact in USD so exactly canceled each other out.
First time this has happened to me.
First time this has happened to me.
Mar 21, 2015, 8:54 am
#1758
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
Was in Seoul last week and went on the JSA tour. Travel agency quoted me ticket price in KRW and ran my credit card, but when they gave me the receipt to sign it was in USD. Sneaky. Didn't even give me the option upfront. I promptly asked them to charge me in KRW instead so they reversed the original charge. I was worried that the reversal would go through as KRW whereas the initial charge was in USD so I'd eat some currency conversion fee anyway, but both charges were in fact in USD so exactly canceled each other out.
First time this has happened to me.
First time this has happened to me.
Maybe it had the options but they just chose the wrong one for you.
I had the same thing happened on me at Lotte Market where a lady hit USD for me in milliseconds before I can react... The difference was several cents so I let it go.
But anyway, I haven't dealt with individual vendors like travel agencies so I can't be so sure. The smallest I've dealt with were small restaurants which all turned out to be pretty fine.
Mar 21, 2015, 7:13 pm
#1759
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,767
DCC at ATMs in Turkey
Not sure if anyone posts about DCC at ATM but here is what I discovered on a recent visit to Turkey.
Both transactions were on the Schwab card.
I made a withdrawal at an ATM in the parking lot of Sheraton Adana - there were 2 ATMs from 2 Turkish banks. I randomly picked one and just withdrew 100 TY as we did not have any local currency on us (flew in from DOH to IST and immediately went thru immigration to the domestic terminal to connect to our domestic TK flight but there was no ATM at Adana airport.) I did not see any equivalent USD amount nor any indication on the ATM screen about whether I wanted the conversion or not. It only showed the pre-set amounts and Other and once I chose the amount the machine processed the transaction.
It showed on Schwab side being $39.06, exactly 3% more than using the historical rate shown on XC site. It should have been $37.92.
I dont know how to dispute a DCC on ATM withdrawal and especially for $1.14 only.
About a week later I withdrew another 100 TY at ING bank's ATM at Bodrum. The ATM said there would be $4 transaction fee and asked if I wanted to continue. Since Schwab would reimburse ATM fee I continued the transaction. This time the screen showed me it would be $39.30. At the bottom of the screen there were options whether Continue with conversion or Continue without conversion. Needless to say, i continued without conversion. That withdrawal turned out to be $38.49. Schwab did not show the $4 being charged though.
So, these were the first times i encountered DCC at ATMs but there was no way to avoid the first one because there was no warning nor options to choose from as versus the ING Bank's. i could not understand why the $4 ATM fee did not show up at Schwab's side. Schwab normally shows the ATM fee and then reimburses the fee at the end of the month. (Fido would reimburse the next day the fee is posted.)
Last year I made numerous withdrawals at the ATM located at the driveway of Conrad Bali, Indonesia and there was no DCC.
Next time I would try to only withdraw from ATMs attached to a bank though it does not mean there would not be any DCC but I suspect those standing alone ATMs may be more rigged.
On another note, hotels converted the Euro bookings (a Crowne Plaza of IHG and a Double Tree of Hilton) into TY when paying the hotel bills. On the official booking channels, they are quoted in Euro but at the hotel they bill in TY. I cannot tell whether there is a padding. Because Euro has dropped so much so rapidly, it resulted to a few bucks higher than what they would have been had they been in TY all along.
Both transactions were on the Schwab card.
I made a withdrawal at an ATM in the parking lot of Sheraton Adana - there were 2 ATMs from 2 Turkish banks. I randomly picked one and just withdrew 100 TY as we did not have any local currency on us (flew in from DOH to IST and immediately went thru immigration to the domestic terminal to connect to our domestic TK flight but there was no ATM at Adana airport.) I did not see any equivalent USD amount nor any indication on the ATM screen about whether I wanted the conversion or not. It only showed the pre-set amounts and Other and once I chose the amount the machine processed the transaction.
It showed on Schwab side being $39.06, exactly 3% more than using the historical rate shown on XC site. It should have been $37.92.
I dont know how to dispute a DCC on ATM withdrawal and especially for $1.14 only.
About a week later I withdrew another 100 TY at ING bank's ATM at Bodrum. The ATM said there would be $4 transaction fee and asked if I wanted to continue. Since Schwab would reimburse ATM fee I continued the transaction. This time the screen showed me it would be $39.30. At the bottom of the screen there were options whether Continue with conversion or Continue without conversion. Needless to say, i continued without conversion. That withdrawal turned out to be $38.49. Schwab did not show the $4 being charged though.
So, these were the first times i encountered DCC at ATMs but there was no way to avoid the first one because there was no warning nor options to choose from as versus the ING Bank's. i could not understand why the $4 ATM fee did not show up at Schwab's side. Schwab normally shows the ATM fee and then reimburses the fee at the end of the month. (Fido would reimburse the next day the fee is posted.)
Last year I made numerous withdrawals at the ATM located at the driveway of Conrad Bali, Indonesia and there was no DCC.
Next time I would try to only withdraw from ATMs attached to a bank though it does not mean there would not be any DCC but I suspect those standing alone ATMs may be more rigged.
On another note, hotels converted the Euro bookings (a Crowne Plaza of IHG and a Double Tree of Hilton) into TY when paying the hotel bills. On the official booking channels, they are quoted in Euro but at the hotel they bill in TY. I cannot tell whether there is a padding. Because Euro has dropped so much so rapidly, it resulted to a few bucks higher than what they would have been had they been in TY all along.
Last edited by Happy; Mar 21, 2015 at 7:28 pm
Mar 22, 2015, 9:50 am
#1760
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: MSP
Programs: Delta 1 MM, Platinum. Marriott-Hilton Gold
Posts: 312
I agree, when withdrawing, always use an international bank. They do follow a bit higher ethical standards due to fear of regulatory bodies. schwab generally reimburses the ATM fee a few weeks later. But you can always send in ATM fee receipt copy and they will promptly credit your account.
Mar 22, 2015, 10:20 am
#1761
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,068
1 Turkish Lira = 0.390586 United States Dollar
100 TRY = 39.06 USD
About a week later I withdrew another 100 TY at ING bank's ATM at Bodrum. The ATM said there would be $4 transaction fee and asked if I wanted to continue. Since Schwab would reimburse ATM fee I continued the transaction. This time the screen showed me it would be $39.30. At the bottom of the screen there were options whether Continue with conversion or Continue without conversion. Needless to say, i continued without conversion. That withdrawal turned out to be $38.49. Schwab did not show the $4 being charged though.
Last year I made numerous withdrawals at the ATM located at the driveway of Conrad Bali, Indonesia and there was no DCC.
Next time I would try to only withdraw from ATMs attached to a bank though it does not mean there would not be any DCC but I suspect those standing alone ATMs may be more rigged.
Next time I would try to only withdraw from ATMs attached to a bank though it does not mean there would not be any DCC but I suspect those standing alone ATMs may be more rigged.
DCC at ATMs has been talked about on this thread in the past but usually it's not a problem since the user is in control of the transaction. You will never have a cashier pressing buttons/opting in for you without your consent. Always proceed without conversion - some setups might have you confirm twice with confusing language, "Are you absolutely sure?!!! If you do this we cannot guarantee the exchange rate! Press OK to accept rate or NO to cancel." You then press OK thinking it is just a confirmation screen when in reality you're opting back in to the conversion. It's sneaky and dishonest, but it happens. In the worst case, keep declining everything. If it ends up cancelling the transaction, start over and you haven't lost anything.
Travelex ATMs are usually guilty of trying to DCC, but there are other examples as well. Usually those away from airports or other areas with lots of foreigners are safe.
If you could provide the transaction and posting dates of your two ATM withdrawals, we could see what rate was applied and compared to Visa's exchange rate calculator.
Mar 22, 2015, 10:28 am
#1762
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 261
I'll grab a receipt next time I see one to post an example of the very poor rate offered.
Mar 22, 2015, 11:03 am
#1763
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,068
I have noticed more ATMs in the UK (the standalone type found in shops and bars) are starting to offer DCC. The ATM at my work (a scientific research facility in the middle of nowhere near Cambridge) offers a particularly poor rate. There is someone who withdraws cash on an almost daily basis (leaving his/her receipt on the machine each time) who opts for DCC on their Euro Maestro card.
I'll grab a receipt next time I see one to post an example of the very poor rate offered.
I'll grab a receipt next time I see one to post an example of the very poor rate offered.
I imagine the acceptance of DCC at ATMs, like retail transactions, is purely out of ignorance rather than wanting a fixed exchange rate.
Mar 22, 2015, 3:22 pm
#1764
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada
Programs: BA Gold (OWE), Star Alliance Gold, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,194
I have not been to the UK in over 3 years, so it's unsettling that the problem has worsened. I only had on withdrawal during my November 2011 trip (at a Travelex ATM), but I don't remember DCC being much of a problem to avoid at ATMs at the time. I just referenced the transaction and historical exchange rates - Visa doesn't publish rates on the website past one year - and it appears that I avoided DCC at the time. The transaction from 11/24 posted on 11/28 at $311.95. The closest GBP value was £200. Using historical exchange rates from XE, things seemed to be within 0.5% of the exchange rate.
I imagine the acceptance of DCC at ATMs, like retail transactions, is purely out of ignorance rather than wanting a fixed exchange rate.
I imagine the acceptance of DCC at ATMs, like retail transactions, is purely out of ignorance rather than wanting a fixed exchange rate.
I'd hope foreigners aren't being ripped off with ATM dcc too much in the UK anyway, not that they need to withdraw much cash, there aren't many places you can't use a card. (Living here, I haven't used cash in the UK for probably over a year).
Mar 22, 2015, 5:04 pm
#1765
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RSW
Programs: Delta - Silver; UA - Silver; HHonors - Diamond; IHG - Spire Ambassador; Marriott Bonvoy - Titanium
Posts: 14,185
I can't see the standalone ATMs being a massive problem for tourists, most of the ones used will probably be bank owned ones that don't generally have DCC. Confusingly though, some Sainsburys and some Lloyds ATMs give an estimated rate in the cards currency but it isn't DCC, they still charge in GBP. It'll just show for example, £10 and then 15 USD Est.
I'd hope foreigners aren't being ripped off with ATM dcc too much in the UK anyway, not that they need to withdraw much cash, there aren't many places you can't use a card. (Living here, I haven't used cash in the UK for probably over a year).
I'd hope foreigners aren't being ripped off with ATM dcc too much in the UK anyway, not that they need to withdraw much cash, there aren't many places you can't use a card. (Living here, I haven't used cash in the UK for probably over a year).
Mar 22, 2015, 7:33 pm
#1766
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,068
I can't see the standalone ATMs being a massive problem for tourists, most of the ones used will probably be bank owned ones that don't generally have DCC. Confusingly though, some Sainsburys and some Lloyds ATMs give an estimated rate in the cards currency but it isn't DCC, they still charge in GBP. It'll just show for example, £10 and then 15 USD Est.
I'd hope foreigners aren't being ripped off with ATM dcc too much in the UK anyway, not that they need to withdraw much cash, there aren't many places you can't use a card. (Living here, I haven't used cash in the UK for probably over a year).
I'd hope foreigners aren't being ripped off with ATM dcc too much in the UK anyway, not that they need to withdraw much cash, there aren't many places you can't use a card. (Living here, I haven't used cash in the UK for probably over a year).
Mar 22, 2015, 10:14 pm
#1767
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
I can't see the standalone ATMs being a massive problem for tourists, most of the ones used will probably be bank owned ones that don't generally have DCC. Confusingly though, some Sainsburys and some Lloyds ATMs give an estimated rate in the cards currency but it isn't DCC, they still charge in GBP. It'll just show for example, £10 and then 15 USD Est.
I'd hope foreigners aren't being ripped off with ATM dcc too much in the UK anyway, not that they need to withdraw much cash, there aren't many places you can't use a card. (Living here, I haven't used cash in the UK for probably over a year).
I'd hope foreigners aren't being ripped off with ATM dcc too much in the UK anyway, not that they need to withdraw much cash, there aren't many places you can't use a card. (Living here, I haven't used cash in the UK for probably over a year).
Mar 22, 2015, 10:27 pm
#1768
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Do bear in mind that one of the lies clerks are instructed to tell people who notice that the dcc scam is being perpetrated on them is to tell them the amount listed in your currency is just an estimate for your convenience and that you are really being billed in whatever the local currency is. Of course when I come back and say then why am I being asked to sign a statement that I agree to the conversion rate and the decision is final, they quickly shut up.
Mar 22, 2015, 10:34 pm
#1769
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
and many of the ones that do accept card there charge £.5/£1 for doing so (easily 10-20% of an order too), so the preferred payment method there is also cash.
Mar 23, 2015, 1:13 am
#1770
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 261
Then you get pubs who make up odd rules. One in Islington (near King's Cross station) would only take cards for purchases under £5 if they were contactless
