Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Jan 6, 2015, 2:25 am
#1531
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,508
Jan 6, 2015, 2:28 am
#1532
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
yuropflyer: happy to see coverage of the menace from a European perspective, thanks.
zyxlsy: https://translate.google.com/transla...a-1008582.html
All my planned travels til September (Indonesia (twice), Australia (where I have local card), Taiwan, Thailand and Korea) shouldn't have DCC or offer real choice.
zyxlsy: https://translate.google.com/transla...a-1008582.html
All my planned travels til September (Indonesia (twice), Australia (where I have local card), Taiwan, Thailand and Korea) shouldn't have DCC or offer real choice.
Jan 6, 2015, 2:46 am
#1533
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
Looks like these people work out exactly how much goes to whom in a DCC ATM transaction: https://www.six-payment-services.com...INT_EN_opt.pdf
Yes, the word can be innocent but let's look at the second definition in the Cambridge dictionary:
"exploit verb [T] (USE UNFAIRLY)
B2 to use someone or something unfairly for your own advantage:
Laws exist to stop companies exploiting their employees."
Enough said, I think?
Jan 6, 2015, 2:58 am
#1534
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
"Visa Consumer DCC fee deducted for card issuer 0.65%" <-- no wonder Visa is sitting around watching its customers being screwed across six continents!
Last edited by percysmith; Jan 9, 2015 at 6:33 pm Reason: profanity removed
Jan 6, 2015, 3:52 am
#1535
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
But that's not much, if any, different from their currency conversion fees, that's the thing... these aren't really competitive foreign exchange services like merchants and merchant-controlled "consumer" groups want you to believe. Visa gets their chunk either way.
Last edited by philemer; Jan 8, 2015 at 8:07 am Reason: profanity removed from quote
Jan 6, 2015, 4:31 am
#1536
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
Visa imposes 1% over their rates to issuers right?
If they're collecting 0.65% even if the transaction is turned over to the DCC processor, then what competition is this? It's like the Communist Party of China telling you to select between two candidates for two posts.
ACCC shouldn't sue Visa to allow more DCC, ACCC should sue Visa to stop collecting the 0.65% fee! See how much Visa likes DCC then!
If they're collecting 0.65% even if the transaction is turned over to the DCC processor, then what competition is this? It's like the Communist Party of China telling you to select between two candidates for two posts.
ACCC shouldn't sue Visa to allow more DCC, ACCC should sue Visa to stop collecting the 0.65% fee! See how much Visa likes DCC then!
Last edited by percysmith; Jan 6, 2015 at 5:53 am
Jan 6, 2015, 5:19 am
#1537
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
Visa imposes 1% over their rates to issuers right?
If they're collecting 0.65% even if the transaction is turned over to the DCC processor, then what competition is this? It's like the Communist Party of China telling you to select two candidates for two posts.
ACCC shouldn't sue Visa to allow more DCC, ACCC should sue Visa to stop collecting the 0.65% fee! See how much Visa likes DCC then!
If they're collecting 0.65% even if the transaction is turned over to the DCC processor, then what competition is this? It's like the Communist Party of China telling you to select two candidates for two posts.
ACCC shouldn't sue Visa to allow more DCC, ACCC should sue Visa to stop collecting the 0.65% fee! See how much Visa likes DCC then!
Jan 6, 2015, 5:37 am
#1538
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,066
They also use the word kickback. M-W defines a kickback in this context as "an amount of money that is given to someone in return for providing help in a secret and dishonest business deal." Oxford defines a kickback as "a payment made to someone who has facilitated a transaction or appointment, especially illicitly."
I congratulate the publication for being so honest.
It seems from the Spiegel article that some of these people have been encountering 10% DCC markups on their cash withdrawals, which is a complete ripoff. Fortunately, all DCC ATM offers have been relatively easy to avoid so far provided that you know what you're doing. However, the language is confusing, and the trap is set for most people to take the DCC offer when provided with the "choice".
I congratulate the publication for being so honest.
It seems from the Spiegel article that some of these people have been encountering 10% DCC markups on their cash withdrawals, which is a complete ripoff. Fortunately, all DCC ATM offers have been relatively easy to avoid so far provided that you know what you're doing. However, the language is confusing, and the trap is set for most people to take the DCC offer when provided with the "choice".
Jan 6, 2015, 6:12 am
#1539
Join Date: Aug 2008
Programs: HHonors Gold, Marriott Lifetime Gold, IHG Gold, OZ*G, AA Gold, AS MVP
Posts: 1,874
After taking another Uber ride, no. I wasn't ever asked about my preference at any step in the process. So long as their rates remain less than the FTF my AmEx charges I won't really complain.
Also, on a not-entirely-related note, I've been bumping into quite a few problems trying to use my Discover in Shanghai now- on top of the usual "BIN Restricted" errors on terminals, it seems some acquirers are blocking it on their end. At least twice now I've seen terminals dial in, attempt to authorize, and come back with errors like "invalid magstripe data" and "magstripe data verification failed". I wish someone would put some effort into stopping this sort of thing, but I guess the fact that it already has great acceptance in China means that not much effort is going to be put into making these acquirers/merchants compliant.
Also, on a not-entirely-related note, I've been bumping into quite a few problems trying to use my Discover in Shanghai now- on top of the usual "BIN Restricted" errors on terminals, it seems some acquirers are blocking it on their end. At least twice now I've seen terminals dial in, attempt to authorize, and come back with errors like "invalid magstripe data" and "magstripe data verification failed". I wish someone would put some effort into stopping this sort of thing, but I guess the fact that it already has great acceptance in China means that not much effort is going to be put into making these acquirers/merchants compliant.
Jan 6, 2015, 3:12 pm
#1540
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
After taking another Uber ride, no. I wasn't ever asked about my preference at any step in the process. So long as their rates remain less than the FTF my AmEx charges I won't really complain.
Also, on a not-entirely-related note, I've been bumping into quite a few problems trying to use my Discover in Shanghai now- on top of the usual "BIN Restricted" errors on terminals, it seems some acquirers are blocking it on their end. At least twice now I've seen terminals dial in, attempt to authorize, and come back with errors like "invalid magstripe data" and "magstripe data verification failed". I wish someone would put some effort into stopping this sort of thing, but I guess the fact that it already has great acceptance in China means that not much effort is going to be put into making these acquirers/merchants compliant.
Also, on a not-entirely-related note, I've been bumping into quite a few problems trying to use my Discover in Shanghai now- on top of the usual "BIN Restricted" errors on terminals, it seems some acquirers are blocking it on their end. At least twice now I've seen terminals dial in, attempt to authorize, and come back with errors like "invalid magstripe data" and "magstripe data verification failed". I wish someone would put some effort into stopping this sort of thing, but I guess the fact that it already has great acceptance in China means that not much effort is going to be put into making these acquirers/merchants compliant.
But if I immediately log on to Discover mobile app, I see the declined transactions, and if I press "I did those transactions", and swipe again, it would go through.
I guess it is technologically possible to block certain issuers. After all, Discover cards are recognized as 银联国际业务平台 issued, only.
Jan 6, 2015, 4:30 pm
#1541
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: ELP
Programs: AAdvantage, Amex MR
Posts: 2,314
One thing that just entered my mind is DCC is good for those who know how to avoid it. Let me explain. Merchants hate paying fees to accept credit cards. We all know most would love nothing more than to charge people to use credit cards. If most people fall for the DCC scam, the merchant gets to enjoy the extra revenue and thus they would be less likely to try something like a credit card surcharge.
I would gladly deal with something optional like DCC as opposed to something forced like a credit card surcharge.
I know in the US credit card surcharges are unheard of due to our customer friendly environment with regards to credit card use, I know there was some lawsuit about it a few years back, but I have yet to encounter a credit card surcharge in the US, except for things like utility bills online where you are charged to use a card but the billing is through a 3rd party or something like that.
Other parts of the world are not so consumer friendly. Like Australia for example. Most places charge you extra for using a credit card from what I hear over there. I would absolutely hate to have something happen like banning DCC or at the very least making it completely transparent, and the unintended consequence is credit card surcharges.
I would gladly deal with something optional like DCC as opposed to something forced like a credit card surcharge.
I know in the US credit card surcharges are unheard of due to our customer friendly environment with regards to credit card use, I know there was some lawsuit about it a few years back, but I have yet to encounter a credit card surcharge in the US, except for things like utility bills online where you are charged to use a card but the billing is through a 3rd party or something like that.
Other parts of the world are not so consumer friendly. Like Australia for example. Most places charge you extra for using a credit card from what I hear over there. I would absolutely hate to have something happen like banning DCC or at the very least making it completely transparent, and the unintended consequence is credit card surcharges.
Jan 6, 2015, 4:55 pm
#1542
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,508
One thing that just entered my mind is DCC is good for those who know how to avoid it. Let me explain. Merchants hate paying fees to accept credit cards. We all know most would love nothing more than to charge people to use credit cards. If most people fall for the DCC scam, the merchant gets to enjoy the extra revenue and thus they would be less likely to try something like a credit card surcharge.
I would gladly deal with something optional like DCC as opposed to something forced like a credit card surcharge.
I know in the US credit card surcharges are unheard of due to our customer friendly environment with regards to credit card use, I know there was some lawsuit about it a few years back, but I have yet to encounter a credit card surcharge in the US, except for things like utility bills online where you are charged to use a card but the billing is through a 3rd party or something like that.
Other parts of the world are not so consumer friendly. Like Australia for example. Most places charge you extra for using a credit card from what I hear over there. I would absolutely hate to have something happen like banning DCC or at the very least making it completely transparent, and the unintended consequence is credit card surcharges.
I would gladly deal with something optional like DCC as opposed to something forced like a credit card surcharge.
I know in the US credit card surcharges are unheard of due to our customer friendly environment with regards to credit card use, I know there was some lawsuit about it a few years back, but I have yet to encounter a credit card surcharge in the US, except for things like utility bills online where you are charged to use a card but the billing is through a 3rd party or something like that.
Other parts of the world are not so consumer friendly. Like Australia for example. Most places charge you extra for using a credit card from what I hear over there. I would absolutely hate to have something happen like banning DCC or at the very least making it completely transparent, and the unintended consequence is credit card surcharges.
Jan 6, 2015, 4:56 pm
#1543
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,066
One thing that just entered my mind is DCC is good for those who know how to avoid it. Let me explain. Merchants hate paying fees to accept credit cards. We all know most would love nothing more than to charge people to use credit cards. If most people fall for the DCC scam, the merchant gets to enjoy the extra revenue and thus they would be less likely to try something like a credit card surcharge.
The only place where I have seen a consistent surcharge in Australia has been at hotels, but there would likely me a fair amount of AUD-denominated cards used there. I don't think the majority of transactions would be DCC eligible.
Jan 6, 2015, 5:18 pm
#1544
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
One thing that just entered my mind is DCC is good for those who know how to avoid it. Let me explain. Merchants hate paying fees to accept credit cards. We all know most would love nothing more than to charge people to use credit cards. If most people fall for the DCC scam, the merchant gets to enjoy the extra revenue and thus they would be less likely to try something like a credit card surcharge.
I would gladly deal with something optional like DCC as opposed to something forced like a credit card surcharge.
I would gladly deal with something optional like DCC as opposed to something forced like a credit card surcharge.
High interest rates on credit cards are great for those who don't carry a balance. Ripoff prices at supermarkets are great for those who know how to track sales. Expensive traffic tickets are great for those who can drive properly. $50 charges for overdrawing a checking account are great for those who can manage their money properly. High taxes are great for those who know the loopholes. In all these cases, the more others pay, the less you have to pay.
My issue with DCC is that it targets foreigners, who may not be familiar with the local language and culture, and therefore unable to hold their ground when nudged into accepting it.
Jan 7, 2015, 1:45 am
#1545
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SIN (with a bit of ZRH sprinkled in)
Posts: 9,456
I agree with cbn42.
I think if DCC would be "fair", as in "select USD or EUR" and having the DCC rate clearly showing (so everyone who memorized the exchange rate - which any smart traveller should do - won't fail for it) and the selection being honoured in 100% of the cases, we wouldn't have such a thread here.
The problem with DCC is that the banks are really overdoing it, ie making it terribly hard if not impossible to opt out of it, while the whole process was originally designed to be opt-in, ie if you don't do a choice, it's the local currency, not DCC, which should apply. However, greedy banks (and merchants) bend the rules very, very much, and in some cases, act plain illegal (not that I'm used anything differently from Banks, though..)
For myself, I've mostly stopped using MC and Visa in more and more countries (as more get infected by DCC) apart from my credit card to get cash (where I often have to tap several times that I don't want to be scammed) where at least at ATMs they haven't put "mandatory DCC" in place fully yet.
Generally, I've moved to use Amex (and cash) much, much more often.
I think if DCC would be "fair", as in "select USD or EUR" and having the DCC rate clearly showing (so everyone who memorized the exchange rate - which any smart traveller should do - won't fail for it) and the selection being honoured in 100% of the cases, we wouldn't have such a thread here.
The problem with DCC is that the banks are really overdoing it, ie making it terribly hard if not impossible to opt out of it, while the whole process was originally designed to be opt-in, ie if you don't do a choice, it's the local currency, not DCC, which should apply. However, greedy banks (and merchants) bend the rules very, very much, and in some cases, act plain illegal (not that I'm used anything differently from Banks, though..)
For myself, I've mostly stopped using MC and Visa in more and more countries (as more get infected by DCC) apart from my credit card to get cash (where I often have to tap several times that I don't want to be scammed) where at least at ATMs they haven't put "mandatory DCC" in place fully yet.
Generally, I've moved to use Amex (and cash) much, much more often.