LETTERBOY

Where in France were you? Were you in Paris, or somewhere else?

DCBob

Agreed. According to Chase, Visa International requires ALL merchants worldwide to accept magnetic stripe cards and those that refuse can be fined by their bank. The swipe slot on the portable credit card machines is extremely narrow and is usually along the right edge of the machine.

I called Chase today to activate my new chip-and sign Hyatt Visa card and this is what I was told.

pinoymutt

Quick question -- has anyone with a Citi TY Premier card that has successfully requested the card with "Global Chip Capability" actually received one?

I'm on my 4th go around with Citi (supposedly they "overnighted" the card twice) and I haven't seen a thing. Every time call back, no record of the card being processed. On this last go around I got a "the notes say your card is ineligible."

I'm at my end's with Citi and may switch over to Chase. Last ditch effort is I just sent a tweet to @Askciti as was mentioned earlier in the thread -- but I'm not holding my breath.

Just curious I am the only one?

kebosabi

What Chase assumes VISA would do is rarely implemented. From VISA POV, 99.9% of transactions in Europe are done via the chip from Europeans and every other tourist to Europe except Americans. VISA is not got going to fine and lose European merchants just because mag-stripe only cards which only Americans carry these days can't be processed.

Case in point, do you really think VISA is stupid enough to fine and revoke VISA license from SNCF French Rail which probably earns VISA millions in Euros from transaction fees when 99.9% of their transactions work fine via the chip and just because 0.1% of Americans can't get their cards to work via the mag-stripe? Yeah, let's revoke SNCF's VISA license and lose out on millions of Euros just because Americans, who make up less than 0.1% of SNCF's passenger volume, can't use the mag-stripe.

Both from VISA and European merchant's POV, the ball is in American financial institution's court, not theirs. Besides, only 1/3 of Americans even own passports and even fewer visit Europe. From a VISA Int'l standpoint, Americans using mag-stripe credit cards abroad are a minuscule drop in the bucket compared to other countries' chipped VISA cardholders using their cards that moved to the chip. Why should they even care to do it and risk losing out on millions in transaction fees? And it's not like chipped VISA cardholders have problems using their cards when they visit the US; they still have mag-stripes on them. That makes American complaints to VISA, much lesser of a priority.

cvarming

And remember that merchants in Europe don't have agreements with VISA and MasterCard. They have agreements with the Visa/MC licensee in their country (typically a consortium of local banks). And these contracts are not enforceable by Visa/MC.

Frankly, if a merchant denies a mag-stripe transaction I fully understand him. With the chip transition in Europe most merchant agreements were changed such that the merchant is liable for any charge backs due to fraud for mag stripes transactions and only some charge backs due to fraud for chip transactions. So when you show up with you old mag stripe card you are asking the merchant to take a chance on you. So I can also fully understand why a shopkeeper would train his staff to be extra careful with these cards, or simply deny them.

sdsearch

Assuming for one second that what one Chase agent told one Chase customer is actually correct , they were told that a merchant has to accept swipe cards, not that every machine that the merchant has has to accept swipe cards. If SNCF has an office somewhere in the station with a line half an hour (or longer) long where they accept swipe cards at the window, that's enough; they don't have to accept swipe cards at the kiosks too.

Now, I don't know if this is how SNCF works. It is how Trenitalia works (specifically at MXP and Venice last September). They appear to accept swipe where they can get a signature and it's handed to a human; they don't accept swipe where they can't a signature. Which in turn makes me wonder about chip-and-signature cards (which is all that Chase currently offers)...

cvarming

I had no problem using my Capital One card in a ticket vending machine in Florence last summer. It might have requested my PIN, but that it not a problem.

kebosabi

This reminds me of the Futurama episode where Fry's $0.93 bank account accrued 2.25% interest for 1000 years which ballooned to $4.3 billion, and when he wanted to check his bank account, he whipped out his old mag-stripe card and the future bank teller had to go find an old, dusty, cobwebbed mag-stripe reader to do so.

JDiver

I have the Citi AA Executive card, and called last week for the EMV card. They were very prompt about sending it - but unfortunately, I have verified the card is a chip and signature card. Any PIN you receive will work only at cash machines / ATM cards for cash withdrawals treated as cash advances (at extortionate rates), and do not work as a "chip and PIN" card.

For example, it will not work at automated SNCF (French railroad) kiosks to retrieve a ticket. It's great they are prompt, have the EMV activation and do not charge forex fees, but why in the world would these people go only halfway and not allow chip and PIN operations? What were they thinking? That we would not venture overseas with a credit card with zero forex chanrges?

I also checked out the Travelex Cash Passport card - ridiculous! It is essentially a prepaid MasterCard with EMV (chip and PIN). What's the catch? Nine percent, that's the catch!

EUR 1,000.00 € Travelex card today costs USD $1,458.79!

€1,000.00 today is worth, at market rates, $1,315.06.

Market rate is 1 USD = 0.760422 EUR

Travelex rate is 1 USD = 0.6855 EUR

On top of which Travelex needs your credit card to buy online (unless you are at a Travelex office with cash or use your bank VISA or MC branded ATM card), meaning if you mistakenly use a credit card you take a hit for a cash advance fee.

kebosabi

The common pitfalls of assuming an EMV chip = Chip-and-PIN. Unfortunately, very few US financial institutions went all the way to Chip-and-PIN, and majority of them that have begun issuing EMV capable cards are Chip-and-Signature.

Best bet is to get the Andrews FCU Globetrek Rewards card via joining the American Consumer Council (no cost) for full Chip-and-PIN. That's pretty much the only card available today that anyone can get without being a millionaire. On the bright side it has no annual fee.


Assumptions that Americans are more familiar with signing things than remembering PIN numbers (we're too dumb to remember anything past four digits ), perhaps?

Either that or US financial institutions are still stuck in the 1950s era when graphology was considered solid science?

Or, the failure to think that more and more things are being automated these days that replace human beings with unmanned machines? What are you going to do, sign on the touch screen and let the machine verify that it's actually your signature matching the back of your card?

mia

You can read VISA's official explanation in this post, and it has nothing to do with the ability of Americans to remember PINs. This decision may be sound for the introduction of EMV in the domestic USA market, but it's not ideal for those who travel to countries where PIN is the chosen verification method.

Diners Club MasterCard has implemented Chip & PIN, but this won't help you unless you happen to already have an account because they are still not accepting applications, and they still charge 3% foreign transaction fee, -and- they have no mechanism for changing the PIN (which illustrates the infrastructure required to implement Chip & PIN completely.)

JEFFJAGUAR

But the article and the attitude of visa doesn't cover the problem. The idea is for credit cards to be universal payment devices. More and more places do not take magnetic strip cards or chip and signature cards. Period. They can take the attitude of the Chase rep, (the merchant agreement prohibits them from not accepting any valid card). Try explaining that to an unmanned or unwomanned self service petrol pump in France on a Sunday afternoon ("you have to take my card."). This is reality not theory. It doesn't matter one iota which is a superior product or easier to implement. The fact is European cards have magnetic strips for their customers' benefit when they travedl in backward countries that haven't adopted emv technology (there is basically only one such country in what would be referred to as the first world not mmeaning to demean anybody else). It doesn't matter there are better ways of doing business a few years down the line (if that were so, I never would have gotten my first or second or third...computers)....this is the reality of today.

There is no earthly reason why hybrid cards are not immediately made available capable of being used in the United States which would mean it is not necessary to revise the whole payment system as well as Europe. Apparently Andrews FCU has mastered it (incidentally I am pleased to report I have been approved for the card and am awaiting it). Capital One's whole credit card program and its success there of is based on its decision not to charge foreign transaction fees (let's see how many people would continue to hold their cards if that was ever dropped; I am sure their bean counters have done the research and discovered that as their no foreign transaction eat the visa/mc fee program has continued). Why they haven't been in the forefront of offering emv with use of a pin for use of their many many customers who acquire their cards simply for foreign transaction is well mystifying. It just cdan't be all that expensive to offer hybrid cards which do not require a whole change in the way American merchants do their business.

More and more people are reporting difficulties in using the antiquated US cards even at manned or womanned places (try using a magnetic strip card anywhere within the Netherlands railway system).

In the interim, may I recommend people to whom this is important to look at Andrews fcu. I joined and got approved for their card....those who understand the need for this should be out front in seeing their program becomes profitable.

mia

We are in complete agreement. The USA card issuers are following VISA (and MasterCard's ?) advice, and this isn't responsive to the needs of travelers. However, the Diners Club unchangeable PIN illustrates that this is more difficult than we may think.

It will be interesting to see if the Andrews FCU cards allow the PIN to be changed, what the procedure is, and if they will work in devices which use offline verification.

I have UK-issued Chip & PIN card and the normal way to change the PIN is at an ATM because the PIN is stored in the CHIP, and the ATM can write to the Chip. If the PIN is not stored in the Chip I don't believe the card will work offline.

mia

Thank you. This is the same as the Diners Club MasterCard solution. It should work at offline POS machines. The tradeoff is that it's not ideal if the PIN is compromised.

sdsearch

Since the PIN works with the chip, how is the PIN capable of being compromised without the card itself being compromised (and thus needing a new card anyway)? Do you give the PIN verbally when ordering over the phone with a chip & pin card?