DL "rollover" EQMs
Sep 3, 2009 | 4:36 am
#16
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I'm in the same boat as RedTailShark....except I'm at the point that if EUA doesn't work on DL I'm already crediting to CO....DL is not the airline of choice for my any longer, it's the airline of default because of my offices location....CO is now my airline of choice
Sep 3, 2009 | 4:47 am
#17
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chicago
Programs: UA 1K, HH Diamond
Posts: 2,071
I have to say, DL raised the bar on everyone with it's new program. Systemwide upgrades, rollover EQM's, there's a lot happening there...
Problem is CO keep reading it's own press releases and thinks it's the best airline in the sky. I saw where they though BusinessFirst was better than Business on any other airline, international airlines included? I'm sorry, but have you ever flown business on Singapore, or even Korean for that matter? Get past the ego trip, and continue the process of constant improvement, it's the only way.
Problem is CO keep reading it's own press releases and thinks it's the best airline in the sky. I saw where they though BusinessFirst was better than Business on any other airline, international airlines included? I'm sorry, but have you ever flown business on Singapore, or even Korean for that matter? Get past the ego trip, and continue the process of constant improvement, it's the only way.
Sep 3, 2009 | 7:57 am
#18
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There are other ways to generate incentive that would work besides rollover EQMs, but additional DL SWUs for X amount of flying is likely to be a pretty poor incentive given the overwhelming majority of DL's systemwide upgrades in recent years go unused because of DL's customer-unfriendly restrictions on them.
Sep 3, 2009 | 8:22 am
#19
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Location: Bay Area, CA
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And this differs from the incentive to stop booking with CO after 75k, how? In what way is this "botched"? How is there not now more incentive to book post-75k than there was last year? Not saying that this program will drive a lot of incremental revenue, but claims that it increases the incentive to book away from DL vs last year's program (or most of the competition) completely fails the sniff test.
Many at the Plat level see only a marginal benefit to Diamond, so there's not much incentive to get there. There is a club membership, but that has no value to a ST E+ flying internationally (you get free club access anyway). Further, many are already club members, and the Diamond level doesn't extend one's membership, rather it overlaps it. So if someone has an existing, 3-year or Lifetime membership, the club membership does no good.
The other big "incentive" is the PMUs, which as has been pointed out are highly restrictive. So if one is not able to use them, again, no value here.
So, what happens then is a Platinum who would fly say 130K miles on DL and would realize no benefits to Diamond, would actually be better served by crediting 124K to DL and either not flying or crediting the additional 6K elsewhere. This would allow him to start off the next year with 49K rollover. Had he credited all to DL, then he'd be at Diamond with 5K rollover, a loss of 44K rollover, which is significant, based on the assumption that the Diamond buys him nothing.
In the end, while the rollover EQM encourages people to fly over 75K, the weakness of the Diamond tier may discourage some from flying or crediting if they are approaching the 125K tier.
CO, OTOH, with no such tier or rollover, simply has no incentive, but also no dis-incentive. So if someone wants to fly 130K or even 200K on CO, no problem.
Sep 3, 2009 | 8:35 am
#20
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Location: Tucson, AZ, USA. UA 1K, reluctant but * best in class * DL FO/MM. Former BA jumpseat rider and scourge of Dilbertian management and apologists. As LX might - and do - say: "....an experienced frequent flyer of international airlines"
Posts: 3,386
When put in context with OP miles that are worth much more, amazingly so in cases like the one I detailed, which represents my typical use of mileage, then the SM program offers very little value.
SM offers little value, as a whole. Scott O'Leary offered some rather specific criticisms of the DL PMU model in his recent webcast. His observation that highly restrictive instruments of that type frustrated more customers than they pleased was right on.
Over here, it would be much better if CO offered us a meaningful fourth tier, yes. But as you say, even without that, it's better to fly CO.
But, on the whole, CO's management is better than DL's management. The OP program deficiencies are less objectionable than SM.
I know AA's top tier offering is better and if I could only ever use AA, it'd be much better for me...but the OneWorld version of an "alliance" is laughable. And BA are horrendous, much worse even than DL.
Sep 3, 2009 | 8:40 am
#21
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To further your position, note that around 80% of DL's systemwide upgrades -- issued to DL Platinums -- went unused last year.
Sep 3, 2009 | 9:26 am
#22
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If you don't care about hedging your bets and simply want to maximize your utilization of benefits, then you should remain with your preferred program for all flying. There is little reason to stop short with DL to enable status for another year, only to then not travel with them. At best, such a strategy yields you little more than a soft-landing program.
Sep 3, 2009 | 9:40 am
#23
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SEA
Programs: UA SP, DL SM MM, AS 75K, SPG Platinum, Hyatt Diamond.
Posts: 2,596
"Raised the bar"...well, I wouldn't agree. For one thing, the PMUs aren't the same as former NW EEP SWUs or current AA eVIP instruments. More basically, for some people, SM are almost useless, no matter how many of them there may be, because of bogus "partner airline surcharge" and "international origination surcharge" etc. on award tickets.
I'm in the situation of sitting at about 122k EOY EQM on DL and 75+ on CO. It would be soo easy to exceed the DM threshold on DL. One booking, actually any return flight booking whatsoever on DL, through SLC to anywhere, will do it.
But I don't want it. DM has such limited value. I may even have to credit existing DL itins to CO while the SkyTeam partnership allows this, to avoid any possibility of future DL rebookings into B or Y thrusting me over the precipice.
Reason: I want rollover EQM on DL (to maintain minimal status on them while not actually using them, much, next year - this is very possible with their SM model, oozing MQM from every crevice).
And although the SM accumulate fast, their value is ludicrously low. OP miles are worth so much more to me, I'll tolerate the COEX RJ in preference to the DL F cabin for the rest of the year.
Here's what I found in my recent investigation of the comparative worth of SM vs OP miles.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...tual-case.html
Agreed, CO needs a more competitive top tier, particularly WRT AA EXP and UA 1K. But DL DM doesn't offer anything compelling - much less than NW EEP used to.
It's laughable that a vaunted new FFP top-tier can't incentivize, or at least, not DISincentivize, members who could easily reach it. But somehow, with this tier, DL have inverted the basic rationale for a FFP and managed this unique feat.
I'm in the situation of sitting at about 122k EOY EQM on DL and 75+ on CO. It would be soo easy to exceed the DM threshold on DL. One booking, actually any return flight booking whatsoever on DL, through SLC to anywhere, will do it.
But I don't want it. DM has such limited value. I may even have to credit existing DL itins to CO while the SkyTeam partnership allows this, to avoid any possibility of future DL rebookings into B or Y thrusting me over the precipice.
Reason: I want rollover EQM on DL (to maintain minimal status on them while not actually using them, much, next year - this is very possible with their SM model, oozing MQM from every crevice).
And although the SM accumulate fast, their value is ludicrously low. OP miles are worth so much more to me, I'll tolerate the COEX RJ in preference to the DL F cabin for the rest of the year.
Here's what I found in my recent investigation of the comparative worth of SM vs OP miles.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...tual-case.html
Agreed, CO needs a more competitive top tier, particularly WRT AA EXP and UA 1K. But DL DM doesn't offer anything compelling - much less than NW EEP used to.
It's laughable that a vaunted new FFP top-tier can't incentivize, or at least, not DISincentivize, members who could easily reach it. But somehow, with this tier, DL have inverted the basic rationale for a FFP and managed this unique feat.
As to partner's charging high fees for award tickets, (I assume you are referring to AF) get ready because LH does exactly the same thing, and now you won't have the option of KL to get around it. You won't have any options with LH running or owning nearly all the European *A carriers.
Sep 3, 2009 | 9:45 am
#24
Join Date: Feb 2009
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CO have VERY few passengers using their BF upgrade process too. It's expensive. But in my opinion CO is more expensive. With DL SWU you book in M or above...with CO you book however you want but then pay a fee that equals going to M or above PLUS use miles, keeping in mind you probably won't get the upgrade on half your trip if you are based on the West Coast unless you've booked in a higher fare bucket anyways.
Sep 3, 2009 | 9:52 am
#25
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SEA
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I will agree with everyone here, Delta's managements SUCKS! As a NW PE, I'm appalled by who I have been treated by DL, and have no intention on becoming PM. Still I like some things on SM, including SWU which I have used, and enjoy not having to tap my miles to do so.
Sep 3, 2009 | 9:56 am
#26
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SEA
Programs: UA SP, DL SM MM, AS 75K, SPG Platinum, Hyatt Diamond.
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Recently I tried booking a multicity on CO.com also, and got an error message that I'd have to call reservations...even when I was able to pull up the flights on orbitz.com.
Sep 3, 2009 | 10:06 am
#27
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Location: Tucson, AZ, USA. UA 1K, reluctant but * best in class * DL FO/MM. Former BA jumpseat rider and scourge of Dilbertian management and apologists. As LX might - and do - say: "....an experienced frequent flyer of international airlines"
Posts: 3,386
As to partner's charging high fees for award tickets, (I assume you are referring to AF) get ready because LH does exactly the same thing, and now you won't have the option of KL to get around it. You won't have any options with LH running or owning nearly all the European *A carriers.
True that AF charge very high taxes/fees on awards.
But the real issue is DL's hated "International Origination Surcharge" which applies even on their own metal. If you look at the data I provided in the case study link, you'll see the effect this has on total costs of award tickets. DL are way out of line with other US carriers. AF itins using DL miles are compounded by their own taxes, but if using SM, the DL IOS still applies...how about up to $600 per ticket for Y redemption in bogus taxes and fees?
As for Star and LH, maybe LH charge similarly, but CO redemptions will still allow CO metal to be used without the bogus fees ex-EU. Probably US and UA metal too. So OP is a much higher performing program from that perspective.
Sep 3, 2009 | 1:34 pm
#28
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Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA Gold, AA Platinum, DL Silver, SPG Gold, Marriott Gold
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My problem with DL is that I don't think I have ever, in my entire life, been able to redeem a standard reward. I've redeemed tons of them on CO, AA and NW (and US back when I flew them) but never successful on DL. And the booking engine generally is pretty dreadful. Last I checked, you couldn't even type in "NYC" but had to pick a specific airport.
So that leaves me to my dilemma for a Sunday trip to Europe. I have to connect to E. Europe w/ no nonstops from NY. My choices are AF or AA in J since I want a really, really late flight out of JFK. Miles will be virtually equal (b/c on AF I'll get 150% NW gold/class of service bonus and AA is running a double NW bonus plus 25% gold and 25% class of service). EQM is close -- while AA is doing double EQM, their class of service bonus is points, so you lose the benefit of that whereas NW will give me 50% class of service bonus.
On miles, AA seems the better choice if only because I'd rather my miles on AA than NW/DL (and potential status re-qualify) but the connection schedules work so much better on AF (more choices if I miss a connection).
So that leaves me to my dilemma for a Sunday trip to Europe. I have to connect to E. Europe w/ no nonstops from NY. My choices are AF or AA in J since I want a really, really late flight out of JFK. Miles will be virtually equal (b/c on AF I'll get 150% NW gold/class of service bonus and AA is running a double NW bonus plus 25% gold and 25% class of service). EQM is close -- while AA is doing double EQM, their class of service bonus is points, so you lose the benefit of that whereas NW will give me 50% class of service bonus.
On miles, AA seems the better choice if only because I'd rather my miles on AA than NW/DL (and potential status re-qualify) but the connection schedules work so much better on AF (more choices if I miss a connection).
Sep 3, 2009 | 1:46 pm
#29
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA Gold, AA Platinum, DL Silver, SPG Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 79
In response to a question of why not OP miles for the AF flight, I've already re-qualifed CO Plat so might as well try to renew status elsewhere.
Sep 3, 2009 | 3:05 pm
#30
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: AA Plat4Life4MM/DL MM SM4Life, UA/CO 1K
Posts: 645
Well...AA is coming out again with the DEQM for travel between Sept 2nd and Dec 15th...Here comes the circus FF show !!!