Community
Wiki Posts
Search

CO at LHR

 
Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Nov 1, 2005, 9:02 pm
  #1  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Clinging to the edifices of a decadent past from the biggest city in America nobody really cares about.
Programs: (ಠ_ಠ)
Posts: 9,077
CO at LHR

If Continental could get 'em, they'd be over open slots quicker than a fat kid on a cupcake.

Anyway, caught some interesting information after perusing the 2004 annual report as well as the web and thought I'd pass it on here. Things to note: it's been rumored that CO wants 10 daily LHR slots with 6 being from EWR, 3 from Houston, and 1 from CLE. (I'll see if I can dig up the article where I read this) You guys probably already know what's in the articles, but it should at least make for a good read.

...One example of these limits is the bilateral agreement between the United States and the United Kingdom. Designations between the United States and Heathrow airport in London are limited to two for each country and since both designations are already taken, we cannot serve London Heathrow, even though we desire to do so. Additionally, the bilateral agreement limits frequencies which would prevent us from expanding our service above a predefined number of weekly frequencies. Finally, even if we received a Heathrow designation, we could not serve it from Houston or Cleveland because of point limits. (emphasis added)
Link 1

and this tidbit from as well (although not from CO)
***Continental On BA .......... as it is incensed that British Airways, the dominant airline at London Heathrow, has continued to purchase the limited number of airport slots available. An "airport slot" provides a carrier with the right to take off or land from an airport. Indeed, British Airways announced that it has agreed to purchase four slots held by 1 of only 2 U.S. carriers permitted to operate at London Heathrow, which is an airport closed to new competition. The purchase comes just after British Airways' purchase of 16 slots from European airline Swiss last month & numerous British Airways slot purchases over the past 5 years. It also marks the 1st time in recent memory that Heathrow slots held by a U.S. carrier have been bought by the dominant British carrier. "Over the past few years, British Airways has ruthlessly strengthened its iron grip on Heathrow by purchasing the limited number of slots held by distressed carriers," said Continental.
Link 2
J.Edward is offline  
Old Nov 1, 2005, 9:08 pm
  #2  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Programs: DL GM SkyClub; Starwood Gold, Hertz Gold, HILTON DIAMOND
Posts: 1,685
This is great for CO except for one thing, they aren't allowed to fly into LHR. They must buy all of UA or AAs slots for them to get into LHR. Only 2 airlines from every country (except England) are allowed into LHR. I don't see AA or UA giving up their cash cow routes into LHR.
SR
RamAir is offline  
Old Nov 1, 2005, 9:33 pm
  #3  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Between AUS, EWR, and YTO In a little twisty maze of airline seats, all alike.. but I wanna go home with the armadillo
Programs: CO, NW, & UA forum moderator emeritus
Posts: 35,415
You don't see it the same way I do then. A year or two ago UA sold the LHR slots it was using for EWR-LHR service. I can't recall who bought them but I don't believe it was BA.
Xyzzy is offline  
Old Nov 1, 2005, 9:44 pm
  #4  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,068
Originally Posted by xyzzy
You don't see it the same way I do then. A year or two ago UA sold the LHR slots it was using for EWR-LHR service. I can't recall who bought them but I don't believe it was BA.
IIRC it was indeed BA who bought all the old UA slots.

UA dropped EWR-LHR and some of their oddball routes they were using to hang onto slots (e.g., AMS-LHR).
channa is offline  
Old Nov 5, 2005, 10:37 am
  #5  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: New York, NY, USA
Programs: Lifetime: UA Gold, AA Gold, & Marriott Titanium
Posts: 1,352
Originally Posted by RamAir
Only 2 airlines from every country (except England) are allowed into LHR. SR
This is incorrect. The US-UK bilateral air services agreement (commonly referred to as Bermuda II) allows only two designations from each of the US and UK to use LHR (and in fact also limits the US destinations that can serve LHR). Between the UK and other countries, usage of LHR depends on the agreement between the UK and that country. The EU open skies agreement means that an unlimited number of carriers from any EU country could use LHR, with the caveat being that they would need slots. Slot control is indepenent of the bilaterals.
Dudster is offline  
Old Nov 5, 2005, 9:20 pm
  #6  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 1,380
Originally Posted by Dudster
This is incorrect. The US-UK bilateral air services agreement (commonly referred to as Bermuda II) allows only two designations from each of the US and UK to use LHR (and in fact also limits the US destinations that can serve LHR). Between the UK and other countries, usage of LHR depends on the agreement between the UK and that country. The EU open skies agreement means that an unlimited number of carriers from any EU country could use LHR, with the caveat being that they would need slots. Slot control is indepenent of the bilaterals.
Yes and no. Yes, they are independent, but no, they are not mutually exclusive. Access to LHR is very much a chip in the bilateral talks.

Also, the purpose of the US/EU bilaterals are to modify the existing relationship... so anything is possible!

Personally... who wants to deal with LHR anyway??? I don't care how much closer it is to London, considering the 1 1/2 hour queues at Terminal 3 arrivals! I much prefer LGW... I am from the plane to the centre of London (via LGW Express) in half the time as LHR.

Last edited by cptlflyer; Nov 5, 2005 at 9:23 pm
cptlflyer is offline  
Old Nov 7, 2005, 7:27 am
  #7  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Houston
Programs: UA: MM
Posts: 844
UA Leases LHR Slots to VA

There is a report in today's Financial Times that UA has entered a 5-year agreement to lease two slots to Virgin Atlantic. According to the article this is against EU rules, but the UK doesn't seem interesting in enforcing them.

I don't have a link as this is from the old fashon print edition. I'm sure its on-line somewhere if anyone bothers to search.

FWIW

DLM
dmunz is offline  
Old Nov 7, 2005, 7:41 am
  #8  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Between AUS, EWR, and YTO In a little twisty maze of airline seats, all alike.. but I wanna go home with the armadillo
Programs: CO, NW, & UA forum moderator emeritus
Posts: 35,415
There's an article on the impasse over LHR rights in yesterday's London Times:
...
The 30-year war may finally be about to come to an end. Brussels has taken over the negotiations from Whitehall, and the vexed Heathrow problem could be solved within a fortnight as part of a wider deal that will bring open skies between Europe and America.

The deal would remove any restrictions on flights to America from Heathrow — and any other European airport. It also holds out the prospect of scrapping the arcane system of treaties that now govern flights and the ownership of airlines in most countries..
...

But the proposed Europe-US agreement is extremely controversial, particularly among UK airlines. BA and Virgin Atlantic oppose it, saying that what is being offered by America is a long way from true open skies, and that the big prize — access to Heathrow — is being given up for a song.
...
Last week the US Department of Transportation confirmed that while restrictions on foreign ownership would not be relaxed — foreigners are not allowed to own more than 25% of the shares of a US carrier — it planned to relax the interpretation on the rules of control.

In the future, as long as American citizens remained in charge of key aspects of airline operations, such as safety, foreigners would be allowed control.
...
Continental Airlines was vociferous in its rejection of the plan, pointing out that only two years ago Congress specifically changed the law to prevent “actual control” of US airlines by foreigners. “This attempt to change the law outside the legislative process will not withstand judicial scrutiny,” said a Continental spokesman.

BA and Virgin said the concession did not go far enough, and that a genuine open-skies agreement would require the abolition of limits on ownership and control. ...
Xyzzy is offline  
Old Nov 7, 2005, 8:07 am
  #9  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,498
Don't Air India and Air Kuwait both serve LHR nonstop from NYC?
themicah is offline  
Old Nov 7, 2005, 9:09 am
  #10  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York
Programs: AA PLT (Lifetime GLD), Hilton Silver, Marriott Silver, AA Dining VIP
Posts: 596
Originally Posted by themicah
Don't Air India and Air Kuwait both serve LHR nonstop from NYC?
Yes. PIA used to...and may still
AA-Platinum is offline  
Old Nov 7, 2005, 9:31 am
  #11  
Moderator: Alaska Mileage Plan
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,316
Originally Posted by themicah
Don't Air India and Air Kuwait both serve LHR nonstop from NYC?
Each received the authority prior to Bermuda II. CX subsequently received LHR-JFK authority when Bermuda II was modified but it was immediately contested and has never been allowed to start service.

I seem to remember, but I can't find it documented anywhere, that CO was able to add a provision during a recent modification of Bermuda II that states that it will be the NEXT U.S. airline to get LHR authority. There is no timetable for this and could happen concurrent with AA with AA (or UA) being able to serve LHR from additional destinations like DFW, RDU and maybe STL.

I hope that another FTer can speak more definitely on this possibility.
dayone is offline  
Old Nov 7, 2005, 12:59 pm
  #12  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 1,380
Again, the purpose for these new US/EU talks are to create one EU open-skies agreement that essentially replace the individual agreements between the US and each EU member state (per a court ruling by the EU). Thus, the new talks will start from scratch with regard to LHR... I wouldn't presume that Bermuda II matters much.

Of course, simply because a new agreement might invalidate the current UK regulations on access to LHR from the USA (gateway city and number of carrier restrictions), there is no guarantee that open-access will go to CO.

Last edited by cptlflyer; Nov 7, 2005 at 1:11 pm
cptlflyer is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2005, 12:54 am
  #13  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: New York, NY, USA
Programs: Lifetime: UA Gold, AA Gold, & Marriott Titanium
Posts: 1,352
Originally Posted by themicah
Don't Air India and Air Kuwait both serve LHR nonstop from NYC?
Generally, this would be governed by the US-India/US-Kuwait and UK-India/UK-Kuwait bilaterals with US-UK only playing a roll if specifically prohibitted 5th freedom rights via the UK.
Dudster is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2005, 11:32 am
  #14  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: FLL
Posts: 1,679
I thought that CO has rights to fly to LHR (as designated by the US) but the UK has not granted CO LHR rights. Therefore, CO can offer codeshares on VS (with CO flight numbers).

Isn't this true?
Skylink USA is offline  
Old Nov 10, 2005, 11:54 am
  #15  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,188
No. You're confusing airline rights with military action. Invading Iraq was unilateral. Route authorities are bilateral. The VS codeshares are a marketing agreement.
drtdk is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.