As I said, for me and the routes and times I fly, I do not get to sit in first without having to lift a finger. It has cost me miles and/or time to sit in first, or make a loosing gamble with EUA or waitlists and be crammed into the smallest coach seat in the air.

On American, I am not forced into the pleasure of smelling the hair of the coach passenger in front of me. On United their equivalent of elite seating also is sized for normal humans.

But comparisons to these and other carriers are irrelevant (if you look back at the start of CO's benefit reduction strategies and the threads where they were discussed.) CO's consious decision to weaken their domestic one pass program because it only needed to be better than the others meant that they were satisfied to be the "least worst". The relevant comparison for the purpose of this discussion is how the program stacked up to what it used to be, not how it compares to others...and it is surely worse for mid and lower level elites. With the elimination of reduced mileage easy pass rewards, and now the HoKeY fare lunacy, I think it's a pretty good arguement that the upper tier is much worse now as well.

And finally as I've said before, my reasons for picking the carriers that I and my company uses and why are private and not for public discussion...suffice to say that CO has lost a lot of business from my firm since changing this policy - but living 10 minutes from EWR, you can only fly connections so many times without being forced to take CO for a direct flight.



[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 08-29-2001).]

NjDavid, said: "But no one will tell me that that isn't a drastic reduction in the benefits I was promised when I earned my elite miles last year."
Well, wrong AGAIN. I will. Perhaps you should study the difference between "can" and "may"; "would" and "could". You really mean, that you won't listen to what anyone says if they say benefits have not been reduced. I point out benefit after benefit that have increased... and your answer is to ignore the facts and say they aren't real. ALL your arguments are based on congecture, NOT FACTS. I challange you to give facts like I have. My facts you ignore
1) Increased time periods for upgrade windows
2) Automation of rules, not a change in rules
3) Keep the headset for a lower rental fee
4) Clearly defined fare basis for int'l upgrades.
5) Plats not subject to 30 day rule
6) Increased bonus miles for booking on line
7) Half price reward trips to select destinations
8) Reward certs now are issued in 2 one way certs to avoid forfetting half if the return doesn't upgrade
9) No more redeposit fee for certs

I HOPE NOW EVERYONE WILL SEE THAT YOU ARE JUST BITTER AND MAD AT CO. YOU KEEP SAYING THERE ARE NO IMPROVEMENTS TO BENEFITS... and that CO promised you certain things. well I just listed 9 recent improvements. I'm willing to wager that everyone on the CO board will agree with at least one of the 9 changes, I listed. AND if they do agree with JUST ONE... then there HAS been a improvement. NOT a "drastic" reduction in benefits. So far the only NEGATIVE FACT that has emerged is that the BF upgrades used to be from "MOST fares" and now it is from less than half the fares. I will admit BOTH positive and negative changes. You are so closed minded you couldn't admit it if the sun came up. I agreed with you above that in PRACTICE silvers and golds in hubs might be getting less upgrades... BUT the rules CLEARLY did not change. I don't care how many silly analogies you make... the facts don't support you. Also, very ironic that you admit above that more upgrades are probably being given out... this completely contradicts your recent posts of EUA causing LESS upgrades to be given out.
I didn't like EUA... I still don't like it. But I'm not going to ignore the positive changes out there because I didn't like EUA.

1) Increased time periods for upgrade windows made usless by lower F availability
2) Automation of rules, not a change in rules the results of which give Gold and Silver less upgrades
3) Keep the headset for a lower rental fee and save money by showing "B" movies like Crocodile Dundee in LA and Someone like You http://www.continental.com/dash/buil...1_04_05_200108
4) Clearly defined fare basis for int'l upgrades. tripling the fare eligible for upgrades
5) Plats not subject to 30 day rule since when is that on all destinations
6) Increased bonus miles for booking on line decreased from the 50% bonus for booking e-tickets over the phone that was discontinued
7) Half price reward trips to select destinations again based only on very limited availability
8) Reward certs now are issued in 2 one way certs to avoid forfetting half if the return doesn't upgrade still subject to triple fare prices to be elligible
9) No more redeposit fee for certs still subject to triple fare prices to be elligible

I'm pretty confident that most will see it is not me who can't or wont see things without blinders, and who won't stick to posts with only facts and not personal attacks.




[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 08-30-2001).]

Am I the only person here that thinks interpersonal conflicts and poor anger management abilities should be left OUT of flyertalk?

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What do you mean I can't charge my heart bypass to my Visa? I need the MILES!!!

As a lowly silver I have been 26 for 28 this year - the only ones I missed were CLE->LAX
in February.
Does anybody think perhaps it is easier to get Elite Upgrades because of the reduction in business travel, and therefore there are fewer very frequent fliers to compete with?

I'm aware of AA's more room throughout coach (MRTC) and United's Economy Plus. I fly to Latin America for business and I sometimes choose to fly AA over CO because of more legroom in coach.

But let's be REALISTIC, if you are elite and you are smart you will book a bulkhead or emergency exit row seat in advance. I do that by simply calling the Elite line and requesting those seats. That way when I don't get EUA, I'm not putting my kneecaps at risk.

Having said that, I actually believe that MOST carriers are now at the 31" pitch. I believe Delta, US Airways, Northwest, and America West all have 31" pitch on all or some of their planes. Southwest in their defense has a few more inches. However, of all those mentioned airlines CO has a newer fleet and better service than all the aforementioned carriers.

CO is running a business, and they are one of the ONLY profitable airlines this year. So by the metric they measured against (remember a CEO works for the shareholders, not the employees or customers) CO management is doing a good job.

Apparently.

I love the EUA upgrade process. Works for me. I am amused that some people get so bent out of shape over this. IT'S A FREE UPGRADE. There will always be whiners.

(remember a CEO works for the shareholders, not the employees or customers)

I can't say that I would quite agree with that statement;

I would guess that a CEO who doesn't work for his customer will not spend a lot of time at the top

It really burns me that someone can spend thousands of dollars to achieve an elite level loyally on one airline SPECIFICALLY to avail themselves of a promised benefit, have that benefit reduced or made more expensive, then be told that the benefit was "free".

Our elite status was by no means free. What I expect from an airline is to keep up it's part of that financial deal...or refund us some of the money we spent to get that status.

NJDavid...you think it's finally time for you to switch carriers? You bring a lot of stress to this forum...please take it easy. (everyone notice me being nice to him)

I'll beat cigarman to the punch this time...

NJDavid, what promised benefit is gone?

Is it EUA? CO promised that at a certain time depending on your status you could get a space available domestic upgrade. There was never any promise that the system wouldn't be automated. There was never any promise that you would be able to get up at midnight and call in for an upgrade. The promise was merely that free upgrades would be available. They still are. Now EUA isn't working exactly right for everyone, but there's no reduction at all in "promised" (aka "published") benefits. The reduction (for some) is in effective benefits. Your "promised" benefits are the same.

Is it HoKeY fares? Again, not a promise. CO never promised that B fares or the occasional V fare or even the occasional Q fare would be upgradeable to Europe. We come to "expect" certain "benefits" based on past behavior of CO. Flyers expecting a benefit is not the equivalent of CO promising a benefit. There really is a huge difference.

I really do want to know what CO promised you and how this promise was communicated to you.

The bottom line is that airlines change policies all the time, usually for the worse. As a consumer, you are free to fly anyone you choose. I know it hurts to earn elite status on an airline only to decide the airline isn't for you anymore. Many DL flyers went through this very pain at the end of last year with the SWU fiasco. But by all means, get over it. Move on. Call it a "reduction in benefits" if you must, but don't claim that any of this is over "promised benefits".

You REALLY did beat me to what I was going to say... I was thinking about the first time in this thread he said that he was promised. I thought I'd remind people, that he can't point to ANYTHING in writing that CO promised him regarding the complementry domestic upgrades that they went back on. They promised a certain order of allocation which they simply automated. WHAT HE REALLY MEANS, IS THAT HIS UPGRADE PERCENTAGE FELL. Big freaking whoop. CO NEVER PROMISED A CERTAIN SUCCESS PERCENTAGE! That's what this is all about. His percentage fell so CO is stealing/ripping him off. Boo hoo hoo... cry me a river NjDavid. You are still wrong. And then I check back and you have used the phrase "promised" again. PUT UP... OR SHUT UP. WHERE, DID CO "PROMISE" YOU AN UPGRADE PERCENTAGE???
As for your "responses" to my 9 points...
The certs being issued in two parts... is not subject to triple rates, as you claim. Perhaps, on international flights. But, many people use miles to upgrade domestically. Domestic fares have NOT tripled. Same thing with no redeposit fee. You simply throw up a smoke screen of BS and don't really answer. Example, the movies. I never said anything about the quality of the movies shown. But again, a smoke screen. THE QUALITY OF MOVIES DID NOT CHANGE. You act like the head set price went down and AS A RESULT the quality went down. CO is showing the same type stuff they always have. As for the automation of fares not being a change in rules. The arguement is about the rules, NOT THE RESULT. You "CLAIM" that since automation there are less F seats. Well, first, that is not a FACT, that is what you think. Most people here disagree with you. SECOND, and here is the ultimate irony... YOU IMPEACH YOURSELF ON THIS VERY THREAD...
NJDAVID CALLS HIMSELF A LIAR when he posts, "With the very sluggish economy, these held back A seats are in reality NOT selling today, so there are more upgrades to go around. An example is my flight yesterday CO 220 from IAH to EWR. It was a DC-10 that was half full, with no less than 8 non-revs in the business first seats. They can't give away the seats fast enough." Then about a few posts later he says... "made usless by lower F availability". You clearly will SAY ANYTHING that you think makes CO look bad. When it suits your purpose, it's, there are no F seats... then when you want to imply other moves are stupid in the face of a bad economy... you prove the bad economy by saying there are all kinds of available FC seats. Gee, if the planes are so empty in FC how is EUA keeping Golds and Silvers out of FC??? Guess you need to edit one of your answers so that at least YOU agree with yourself as to, whether or not EUA takes away all the FC seats from Golds and Silvers...

Cigarman, perhaps you can't read as well as can't be civilized and can't stick to facts.

Please reread the post in question instead of taking the individual statements out of context

I can read just fine, oh master of diversion. You said, that your ability to confirm an upgrade ahead of time has changed... BUT the KEY fact is... YOU GOT THE UPGRADE. THEREFORE YOU SUFFERED NO LOSS AT ALL. You rode in FC. Big whoop... now we have to argue about the TIME you got the upgrade??? OH PLEASE...