I'll try again and then I promise (really) to shut up on this subject.

First, I'm not seeing this vast reduction in F seat inventory until right before the flight. I've seen several flights where the morning of the flight they had A1 F0. This seems (no real data to back this up) to happen when coach is oversold or close to it. I've also seen several flights at A0 F0 the morning of the flight. This seems more common when coach has lots of seats left. Maybe I'm flying the wrong routes, but what I'm seeing is A9 F0 6 or more days before the flight and something like A4 F0 3 or 4 days before the flight. But the seats are getting released in a reasonably timely manner. It may very well be that the EWR market yield management behaves differently than IAH where I usually fly through.

Second, you used the word "promise" again. Let's simplify the question -

What benefits were you promised when you earned elite status last year? And where were these promises made?

As promised, I'm done comenting on NJDavid's rhetoric.

Go to ITN right now, plug in EWR to SFO on Sept 10th. Look for direct flights on CO.

You'll find:
CO 548 A9 F0
CO 148 A5 F0
CO 348 A9 F0
CO 65 A9 F0
CO 248 A9 F0

Ok, maybe Monday is a bad day to go. Try Tuesday the 11th. You'll find:

CO 548 A9 F0
CO 148 A8 F0
CO 348 A9 F0
CO 65 A9 F0
CO 248 A9 F0

So much for advance - now WITHIN the upgrade windows:

Monday September 3rd

CO 151 A9 F0
CO 149 A9 F0
CO 153 A9 F5
CO 141 A6 F0
CO 157 A9 F0
CO 159 A9 F0

Tuesday September 4th

CO 151 A0 F0
CO 149 A7 F0
CO 1471 A2 F0
CO 141 A8 F0
CO 157 A5 F0
CO 159 A9 F0

And just to really, really, REALLY, REALLY drive home the point with nothing but complete facts, lets look at TOMORROW August 31 (posted at 9:39pm EST)

CO 151 A6 F0 Q9 T9
CO 149 A6 F0 Q9 T9
CO 1471 A4 F0 Q9 T9
CO 141 A7 F1 Q9 T9
CO 157 A6 F0 Q9 T9
CO 159 A5 F0 Q9 T0

I'm really tired of being accused of opinion and posturing. These are facts. Look them up yourself. Try LAX, LAS..same general results. And all most all of these flights have lots of Q available. Now unless the "NJDavid has a grudge" fantasy can extend to you believing that either I own ITN or am some hacker that can manipulate it, you have to own that transcon out of EWR is EXACTLY as I describe.


The leagal term should not have been "promise", my apologies. The exact legal term is "acting in reliance upon" existing conditions. But they did "promise" not to make any changes with out 60 days advance notice, and with EUA they completely broke that promise. They weaseled out of it by calling it an "enhancement". Yeah right, like the bull enhances the cow. I re-earned Gold Elite status at a time when F inventory was generally available for advance confirmed upgrades by phone call at my upgrade window. During the earning year CO changed the system against their own stated policies to one that no longer gave me even close to the percentage of upgrades that were there when I was re-earning the status. You want to play semantics and NOT call that a benefit reduction? Fine. But the bottom line for Golds and Silvers is that the upgrade systems changed, and the percentages plummeted. Not calling it a reduction does not make the percentages go back to where they were. It might as well be called a reduction, as in reality, for Golds and Silvers, that what it was.

It is important to point out tha these are clear facts again, not emotional arguements. Fact - there is less F inventory. Fact - I have received 2 EUA upgrades all year (with 32 elite segments to date thats 2 for 32). Fact - the upgrade percentage for fellow Gold and Sliver elites flying these routes are way down. Fact - CO has pulled an "October Suprise" substantial change to their one pass program for each of the last two years. Call these clear facts whatever you like, but calling them emotion is just living in blind denial.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
As promised, I'm done comenting on NJDavid's rhetoric.

And I too am done with this debate. I'm taking my father's advice, "never argue with an idiot, people won't know the difference".


[This message has been edited by NJDavid to include more ITN examples (edited 08-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 08-31-2001).]

Oh so now after three times using the word promise... Your new answer is you "relied on existing conditions". Well BIG WHOOP... that is a FAR CRY from what you have been claiming in all these threads! So now it's the "existing conditions" that YOU perceive... great. Explain how THAT is CO's obligation? You keep complaining in thread after thread about CO ripping you off... well, when pressed about these promises, turns out you made them up. You just don't have ANY facts.
As for your silly ITN "proof". BIG WHOOP. EUA does NOT RUN 11 days out. Who CARES what the F bucket is NOW. The window is NOT open. Actually, the TRUTH is that by having F=0 at this point it keeps people from using MILES to upgrade. Thus more seats for the complimentry upgrades once the WINDOW ACTUALLY OPENS! Want to quote any other distracting meaningless statistics? Why not post the ITN numbers for next year... or 2003? Until the window opens... you "prove" NOTHING. I think Shakespere said it correctly... "a man, who struts and frets his hour upon the stage, FULL OF SOUND AND FURY... SIGNIFYING NOTHING". That's why you won't respond again NjDavid... you can't because there was no PROMISE, AND YOU KNOW IT.

OK. Let's think about what CO has promised, and what they're delivering. They said that elites can upgrade in a space available fashion on domestic flights.

If CO set a policy saying that the last 10 revenue seats in first class are never released from A inventory to F inventory until the gate, they wouldn't be violating this at all. And you couldn't say that's a reduction in benefits, becuase they NEVER GUARANTEED ANYTHING ABOUT HOW MUCH INVENTORY THEY RELEASE AT EACH WINDOW.

In fact, reducing the availability of advance upgrade inventory IS A BENEFIT TO HIGHER LEVEL ELITES. Consider the case of a Gold or Platinum who books a flight 18 hours before departure. Silvers have already been upgaded, then some people booked first class seats (as 2-3% of the tickets sold in the US are). No more upgrades are available, so the Silver gets upgraded and the Gold doesn't. That clearly violates the spirit of being a higher level elite.

However, arguing about CO's yeild management system is pointless. Everyone knows that the airlines are only going to release seats when they're sure they won't sell. That's because AIRLINES WANT TO MAKE MONEY. Don't even think about arguing about yield management policies. No airline ever has been willing to talk about this, and no airline ever will.

Also, a note to those commenting on the programs for other airlines -- if you're going to do it, make sure to get your facts right.

Maybe the main combatants here can just start sending nasty e-mails to each other?

Sounds like a good idea. I seem to have stopped caring for this debate- which, mind you, was interesting to start with.

I, for one, have had a pretty good percentage with EUA.

Happy flyin'!

Nice trick NjDAVID...
It should be noted that he EDITED his post AFTER I pointed out his "examples" were outside the upgrade window. I guess this proves he didn't keep his word to not say anything more... BIG SUPRISE. Second, again he "proves" nothing. The way the automatic system works is often to show F0 yet right at the window it will open up a few seats to accomodate elites waiting. We all can tell stories of this happening to us. As a matter of fact, it happened LAST NIGHT for a fellow FT'er. on the EWR-LAX for today. It was F0 yet when I called them today they had gotten the upgrade. So NjDavid... I STILL ASK, WHAT DID CO PROMISE THAT THEY HAVEN'T KEPT? Show us a CO rule or go be quiet. You bad mouth CO and then you "prove" nothing with FACTS only your EMOTIONS. And just like every other FACT I HAVE POSTED, I will back them up. As soon as my friend gets back from LA i'll ask them if I can post their FT handle regarding the upgrade. FACTS NOT EMOTION...

I'm 20/22 on upgradeable (non-COEX) segments as a Silver.

I haven't been reading the CO board as often because I know it will be full of petty arguments instead of useful information. This thread proves my theory.

That's unbelievable. I'm Silver and am batting only 4/8 (not including COEX and intl trips).

Good thought, JonNYC, but will never happen. That would make too much sense...sigh.


------------------
What do you mean I can't charge my heart bypass to my Visa? I need the MILES!!!

Or perhaps it won't happen because someone has no email listed... Enough said.

So how about that NEW improvement about Hawaiian codeshares!

There are enhancements, and there are enhancements.

EUA took from one set of loyal CO customers and gave to another set of even more loyal CO customers. That's still providing the same stuff to the customer base as a whole. Tastes great, or less filling? Depends on whether you're Gold or Platinum, I guess. I'm Platinum flying from SEA or SFO, and I haven't sat in coach except on reward travel and international since EUA...and it's less work. I'm happy. NJD's a Gold flying out of EWR, so his odds are much lower than they were pre-EUA. He's unhappy. My happiness is essentially coming at his expense.

HoKeY takes from one loyal set of CO customers and gives to...themselves. If the upgrade odds increase, it's an indirect result of many factors (possibly including the HoKeY factor). Nonetheless, even if it does, the fiscal cost is substantial (in the hundreds of dollars each time). In fact, they've proven that they'd rather have BF seats go empty than to satisfy their loyal customers with an upgrade. The only exceptions appear to be where they are expecting coach to be oversold. What do we get for their "generosity?" Clearer rules. Forgive me if I don't hand CO a medal for this; I'd love to see which CO customers believe that the clarity is worth hundreds of dollars.

So one kind of "enhancement" transfers benefits among loyal customers. The other simply takes away from them.

The answer to all the bickering is simple. If you don't like the carrier's policy, CHANGE! Use your own economic clout and go fly someone else. (and maybe I'll get your upgrade seat!)

I believe there is some room to take a company you do business with and make them try to be fair and accountable. Eventually, all you have is moving your business elsewhere. Unfortunately, the aitline market is not one with true competition in all markets. Ask why it costs about $200 on CO to fly EWR-ATL and $1800 on CO EWR-MSY...You'll find true competition to ATL.

This is a forum for discussing what we like, what we don't like, what tips we can all learn from and use, and what questions can be answered. It is only recently that a few posters have the gall to try to limit the discussion to only opinions they agree with. Hopefully, Randy will reinforce that this behavior is unacceptable.



[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 09-08-2001).]

"fair"... Life isn't fair. Get over it. And like NYC isn't a competitive market. Get real. Try flying from bismark, or gallup or any of thousands of small towns. You have 5 or more airports with airservice within 45 minutes. And 3 MAJOR airports. You even have a hub for a discount carrier in town. Oh yes... it's such a burden living in the New York area...
Keep complaining... and don't forget to find something bad to say about the new Hawaiian codeshares (which earn status credit no less). I know you can't ever admit anything good happens at CO.

[This message has been edited by cigarman (edited 09-08-2001).]