Not bitter, and don't think of you as lice, rather I know that I post a contrarian viewpoint here, and as such, as a minority, I don't sugar coat things, but instead post in a polarized way to combat the overwhelming volume of opinion on the other side of the debate. Not that I'm a fan of Kim, but in this setting, I am the N Korea of FT. Speak loudly and be extreme in order to be heard. I think more is learned on both ends from 2 sided debates that 1 sided groupthink. I am pretty sure the term"lice" was first used by a FT member, and not an employee in FT lingo. I do, however believe that some people feel their own impact and importance is much greater than it actually is, or at least much greater than the airline gives them credit for, why else would the airline make changes that upset people, other than the fact that they think it benefits the airline more in the long run to do so?

Your right, life can be brutal. I am one of the happiest employees I know. That doesn't mean that I am a complacent lamb being led around by the nose, but rather one who educates himself to do the job he enjoys to the best of his ability. There are plenty of jobs on the corporate side of this industry that have tried to recruit me, and continue to do. I've spent years on that side, of the labor/mgmt game, but enjoy what I currently do now, in part, as you say, due to the security of labor laws and my contracts, in part, because it is in my blood, and in part, because I am very good at what I do (and enjoy success, even if the same labor rules prevent me from being rewarded for them, it is an internal reward I get.)

Precisely - and the evangelist effect is even more influential on revenue. My previous employer had contracts that were pretty much exclusive to Delta and United.

This company is a worldwide conglomerate with over 200,000 employees. I wanted CO added to the list of preferred vendors, so I began lobbying the employee committee that handled travel vendor contracts. I lobbied hard, I pestered, and I got the NW regional sales rep involved (who was representing the interests of both companies back then). Needless to say, after a few test flights and getting tired of me, they added CO as a preferred vendor for domestic and international and downgraded United as a non-preferred but approved vendor (which cost then-United quite a bit of revenue).

Through my lobbying efforts and the positive experience of a few test flights taken by execs and rank/files, we gave Continental and Northwest well over $1M in extra revenue that first year. I'm sure the amount climbed steadily from there as United was pretty much bounced out the door. On my personal travel, even after leaving that company, I regularly bumped into execs flying between the Florida office and Europe in paid F/BF via EWR. Delta still got the domestic lion's share.

So - if an airline changes its product and benefits profile, we can just as easily lobby for its replacement. I no longer work there, but I know plenty who still do, and these folks fly a lot and have little patience for a poor airline experience. I know that if these folks go to the booking tool for a flight and discover no ELR seats available, they will book to DL.

I also know that if CO/UA becomes an uncomfortable and unrewarding experience, they will throw the majority of domestic and Int'l travel to Delta (AA still gets a trickle through MIA-LON nonstops and its LA coverage) and "United" will get the downgrade again. The cost to CO/UA? Potentially much more than $1M per year. Those are real dollars.

Now multiply that across a dozen or so similarly large companies whose employees are not hub-hostages - and Houston has a problem.

I don't disagree with this at all. I sort of find people complaining that a corporation is trying to do what it is legally supposed to do (maximize profits and shareholder return) to be rather amusing.

Also:

I absolutely, 100% agree with this as a principle. The bottom line is my interest is in a healthy, profitable airline that provides the services I need at prices I find reasonable. For the vast majority of my needs, a comfortable, clean coach seat on a safe, on-time plane with employees who offer good customer service (and who are happy with their jobs and employer) is all that I need when I fly. Everything else (shiny plastic cards telling me I am an Unobtainium Elite, F upgrades, redeeming miles for trips to exotic locales) is gravy- and I am more likely to be able to get these sorts of perks if there's a healthy, profitable airline backing them up. (It should be no surprise that I am perfectly happy flying WN a number of times a year.)

AA only offers free upgrades to EXPs, and that's a metric crapload of flying (100,000+ miles is 2,000 miles a week, unless DEQM comes into play, and even then, it's still a lot). Everything else is cash on the drumhead or handing over instruments.

There's also the factor that on a lot of domestic routes (2 hour or so flights), F isn't worth much of a premium: you get a slightly wider seat, some booze, and maybe a snack basket or smallish snack. I've regularly seen AS F go unsold at the gate for a $50 cash upcharge on routes such as SEA-LAX, and WN's bread and butter is flying planes with no F cabin on those kind of 400-800 mile routes, and making good money at it. As such, a junior elite might not want to burn upgrades or pay cash for a short flight.

Thus, it's not surprising that AA isn't going to sell out their F all the time- and other legacies are willing to give most of it away as spoilage. (I will be interested in seeing how long AA is going to buck the trend and protect their F cabin, given that they are the only one left doing this to their junior elites.)

EP. That was one of the funniest paragraphs I have read on this board in quite some time. I am actually on an AA flight and when I read this during boarding, I laughed out loud and had to giggle uncontrollably for about a couple of minutes. The Asian business traveler sitting next to me probably thought I was mentally unstable.

I guess I am a cheap date...I am easy to please. Tjanks for the laugh.

It sounds like you have a rather myopic approach to this requirement - it can be done in a variety of ways and through a variety of leadership cultures.

Screwing one batch of loyal customers with repeat business over for another group which lacks loyalty and price elasticity is not a good way to maximize profits and generate shareholder return in the long run. You should probably do some research on organizations that are able to maximize shareholder value while actually bringing an industry leading product to market that customers find appealing.

Note well how Gordon B was able to maximize profits and generate shareholder value from what was a broken company and business model.

Many ways to skin a cat - Jeff's approach is just not the right one in my opinion, especially in an improving business climate.

No doubt.

I'm simply not convinced that the sky is falling at CO/UA quite the way it comes across here on FT. (See the DL forum circa the NW merger for an example: DL doesn't seem to have imploded since then, but there was a lot of angst over that- and I don't think there's much doubt that DL really squeezed a lot of value out of what the NW loyalists were getting.) The problem to me seems that if luxurious and elite-rewarding FF programs were the acme of airline success, you'd think that the carriers with the most success over the last 10-20 years might be a somewhat different list. (If anything, AA should be blowing the doors off of everyone- I've always thought EXPs had the best deal of everyone out there in terms of top elite, and they do know how to generate yield.)

I also think that people need to be as cold and rational about their decisions about who/where/when/why to fly as airlines are about what to offer their customers (loyal, occasional, and in-between).

I have a friend who's in effect ditched CO for DL- he likes his domestic upgrades, isn't happy with directions under Kellner and Smisek (he banned UA long, long ago, and the occasional foray over there since the CO realignment hasn't impressed him), doesn't mind being paid in SkyPesos™ as long as the F upgrades on domestic flights keep coming, and since he's based out of LAX/LAS he can be pretty carrier-agnostic. I can't say he's made the wrong decision.

Does that help you understand where I'm coming from?

While award availability has gotten tighter, DL has reversed course on a number of changes and improved beyond that. They went from a really poor F product (remember plastic cups on DL?) to quite possibly the best RJ F service in the country (glassware, meals, choices, etc.).

Their launch of SkyPriority services helps reinforce Elite value for the customer base. I initially thought replacing carpets and signage was stupid, but it really does seem to be reflected in the employees attitude towards customers. And the "Have One On Us" program gives a little extra something to Elites stuck in the back.

Much of that happened after the merger, no?

I don't think the post-merger UA is a finished product yet to the extent that DL is (or even was when they rolled out SkyPriority). We're a couple years away from that.

Certainly, be loud about what you want and be prepared to walk if you don't like what you get- in the end, the power that loyal customers have is their money and business. I'm just not sure it's all going to end up doom-n-gloom, Plats/1Ps perpetually condemned to E- while F/ELR upgrades are sold to Ma and Pa Kettle at checkin for tens of dollars.

I hope not, but that's the direction $misek is going.

Best to let them know that we're not too happy about it.

United for several years has given a lot of perks and recognition to their VFFs, in particular 1Ks and GS. On CO they treat it as if its just part of the pecking order, United makes you feel like a valued customer.

One thing I really like about DL's (and AA's) approach with the HAVE ONE ON US-type programs is that you get some token of appreciation for your continued business, even if you're in Y. (and UA has E+, much more valuable IMHO than a free drink) CO won't even actuate the DTV for free.

I tend to doubt it. Post-merger UA is not going to be CO, nor pre-merger UA. I don't think it was all sunshine-and-roses at UA, either. CO had a much better record of bringing in profits and expanding their reach in years past, and I would argue that UA really pioneered the "we'll sell you the implements of status". CO didn't treat Plats as well as UA treats 1Ks/GS, for sure. I think some of this may be a learning curve.

The fact that UA backed down from the CR-1 changes in 2011 (while not backing ALL the way down) is also an indicator, I think, that they are going to respond to concerns.

The decisions going forward are, I think, largely going to be driven by beancounting, revenue generation and branding. This doesn't have to be bad- I tend to think DL tends to be run that way, too (my CO-defecting friend says "DL is run by and for accountants and lawyers"- but he's still pretty happy with them).

Not to diminish that (AS does this too), but minis of booze are pretty cheap ways to buy loyalty.

All the legacy carriers want the high dollar flyer who buys last minute, full fare tickets, particularly in premium cabins internationally. These, with the exception of a few high net worth individuals, are business travelers on the company dime. These companies do not, in general, shell out for domestic F. Thus the various ways of giving frequent flyers upgrades is material to their willingness to buy expensive tickets on YOUR airline. Logged in as a CO Plat, only 1/7 flights IAH-LGA had (automatic) upgrade availability in Y at $1,584 (+tax). You want to pay max fare as a highest tier FFer and have a shot at a battlefield upgrade? You're going to tell this guy to shell out another few bucks for an F buy up? "Hello, thank you for calling Delta."

The international business class guy can fly anyone. He buys a $6,000 NYC-LON RT and gets treated well regardless of who he travels with. Despite many arguments about whose product is best, J is pretty good on most of the many options for that route. Why consistently choose CO? Being treated well when he pulls out the CapitalOne card rather than the corporate Amex might help.

So there is plenty of reason to think that loyalty, rewarded through Elite perks like easily available EUAs, is a net asset to the bottom line. Smisek seems to disagree. It's undeniable that benefits have been degraded, in a rather crappy way (no, we won't sell F-ups if Elites are still sitting in the back!), and the trend is distinctly negative.

Bocastephen suggests a movement to remind CO/UA management that actions have consequences. I'm on board!

I'm not a CO elite but I've enjoyed flying Continental for about four years now. The changes and direction the "new" airline seem to be heading in are upsetting to me, count me in.

I had a great call today with one of the founders of Saveskymiles.

Some very good information and tips to get us started. One of the issues that drove SSM was the overt hostility between DL management and its customers - which is something that we lack at this point, and certainly don't want to encourage.

Also, they had quite a few issues going on at the same time - multiple SM program changes and other anti-customer initiatives (i.e., charging everyone $100 for SDC).

Right now, we're focused on a couple of issues - and we don't have data to back up what we currently assume with be a negative impact to our travel.

So - based on the call, the information I learned and our present situation - and the recent changes announced by Delta wrt additional F seating and int'l E+ which CO will need to respond to, I'd like to suggest the following:

1) We want to maintain a positive relationship with management, even if many of us cringe during that "...we know you'll like them" line during the safety video. OK, so it looks like Jeff really doesn't 'get' us as a group the way Larry did, but I'd rather try and work with them than start a anti-leadership campaign over two issues, one with an unknown impact

2) We know more changes are coming - I'm hoping for the best, but expecting the worst. In an improving business climate, I would surprised if we all get kicked in the butt, but we should be on the lookout for changes which we can articulate as having a negative impact to our travel

3) We need to be more aggressive at data gathering - if we end up making a case that selling ELR before OLCI is actually impacting our ability to reserve these seats, let's keep records of that so we have evidence to back up our assertions. Same with the buy-ups - if you see something that is obviously not right, post it

4) We need to maintain a 'win together' approach - keep employees on our side and demonstrate that we're here to support CO and help it continue to be successful. No one here wants CO to fail

5) A successful organization will require money. SSM raised over 13K for their campaign, and that money was spent on newspaper ads and the famous truck billboard that haunted Mullin at the NY stockholders meeting. We also need a team with specific skills - web design and marketing being two.

6) I think it goes without saying that if E+ is removed from the domestic fleet, even in favor of more F seats, the United board will erupt like Krakatoa. I know many here are in favor of E+ (I prefer more F, but that's me), but if that happens, we should be prepared to organize and ride the momentum of that outcry

So - those are my thoughts right now. Feel free to comment.

Count me in. I can't do much, but if you need me I'll help :)

Thanks! Good comments.