Organizing a Response
 

I know we have another thread that discusses who is leaving or staying and we have a few threads discussing the various product issues that are devaluing our Elite experience, but I'd like to propose organizing a grass-roots movement of loyal, Elite customers who plan on staying and who are willing to push back against some of these product changes.

It's becoming quite obvious that the "new changes....and you'll like them" portion of the security video was not directed at frequent fliers - so far, there is very little for us to like.

Yes, 2011 will bring us regional upgrades and additional system-wide upgrades and we appreciate those enhancements. However, we're seeing a consistent erosion of core hard product benefits as well as a very poorly implemented buy-up program. There are likely additional product changes yet to come which might continue the unbundling of even more Elite benefits to be sold off, further diluting the value of our program.

I believe our first call to action is against the selling of ELR seats before OLCI. Firstly, I don't see how this program produces any legitimate incremental revenue over the previous version where these seats were opened for sale during OLCI - certainly nothing that would offset the impact to Elite customers who are finding access to the best ELR seats harder to come by, especially when booking close to departure (which, ironically, means higher paid fares are getting the worse seats).

US had the Cockroach movement, while Delta loyalists challenged and reversed many of their changes through SaveSkyMiles. Both movements were successful and resulted in a better airline and product for loyal customers.

I don't have a name or branding yet - but at this point, I'm looking to find out how many folks are interested in joining such a movement. With Larry gone and Cigarman no longer active in our forum (and he is missed), we need to self-organize with the goal of educating non-FT Elites, expanding the movement and pushing for change. The big DOs are gone, and the new leadership is rather cold to interacting with us.

As I wrote in another thread, I'm not against CO finding ways to generate incremental revenue. I've even made suggestions on where such revenue can be generated. The issue is the dilution or loss of important Elite product benefits when CO unbundles and sells these benefits to non-Elite customers on a fee-based basis. We need to find some middle ground - help CO find the right mix/timing of these ancillary services while preserving complimentary access to these services for the company's best customers.

Do you really believe that FFOCUS resulted in a better US for its customers? I very much respect the work that Art234 and others put into that effort but I believe that the ultimate end result from US was a product that mostly marginalized those customers further and ultimately saw many leave the US program.

Either way, good luck.

What actually are you proposing we do or what can we do? How does this fit with the assimilation of Onepass members into UA?

happy about cr-1s eh? CO took them from UA 1ks pockets, they didnt create them, they stole them from other members

I think we can start by organizing a group and perhaps driving an online petition regarding one or two simple issues - once the petition has been signed by a large number of customers, we can forward it to management.

I'm not sure we'll get the same passion here as DL or US, but it's worth a try. Other posters might be right - especially if, as I suspect, E+ is removed or reduced, the UA people will go ballistic.

You have my support on this. I'll be here to do my part.

I know a thing or two about branding (so my clients tell me) so will think about that part and ideas for it.

http://n5dux.com/macros/misc-this_is_serious.jpg

Vote with your wallet. Anything else is :rolleyes:.

Yes, it is much better to sit back and do nothing.:o

@OP,
I would be for a grass roots effort. Why not? Is there a downside? I don't share the above opinion that it had negative effects at US. Are we really to believe Smisek the Long Shanks will step off his thrown and come take care of us upstarts once and for all William Wallace style? pfft!

I have already made the decision to leave CO...My first two TPAC trips have been booked with other airlines for the first time in 3yrs. Will take me a while to earn status. Until then I would view at least SOME effort by CO to quit insulting its elites as a positive thing.

Count me in.

What I liked about UA the past few years is that they found ways to make hundreds of millions of $ in incremental revenue without impacting elites (as we discussed in another thread - Premier Line/Baggage/Seating, BOB, E+, etc.). Combined with smart capacity restraints and a great new hard int'l C/F product, carrier was doing great.

But the new UA (really currently the CO side) is experimenting on things that are/will have direct impact on elites (TOD upgrades in all their various forms, selling ELR, various F service cuts e.g., pillows, new RU earning rules, etc.). We'll feel those new "enhancements" (if we aren't already), and who knows what will come next...

No, they tried though. And in the end, that's what matters over just pouting and screaming on FT.

Indeed, because US did not want to listen, or engage them. I do think that at CO there are people who want to listen and engage, though I'm not sure how often they have the ears of the management people... That one might've seriously changed in the new combined CO/UA... :(

yup, that will be a riot.

I am merely a GM of the CO part of the combined UnitedContinentals Holdings company, but it should hopefully be pretty clear to any UA elite that any changes and experiments the CO program makes have a great potential of sticking around for good with the merged program. In other words, we UA flyers need to stand united with our new CO friends. You have my support.

I'm on the bus

Just curiuos
 

Will there be BUTTONS? :eek:

Saveskymiles had buttons, and IIRC, small printed cards they inserted into the inflight magazines to be discovered by other customers.

Count me in. I've been drinking the COolaid for 15+ years, have consistently maintained status, and have organized CO as our company's sole carrier. Now I'm not even considering a MR to requalify this year. Saying that, my gut says that even after loyal customers with average annual purchases > $10k sign on to tell CO/UA they're screwing up, CO/US doesn't care. Something else is driving the corporation that is more important. Just my $0.02.

I'm afraid if we're successful Smisek will just leave, buy something else, and ruin that. I don't want him to close the nice bar down the road from me or ruin my favorite restaurant. I've just given up.

Count me in!
Having just come over from AA for various reasons, I really had high hopes for CO/UA. For some reason when I see Jeff on screen he just gives me a vibe of "Once I am done dismantling both carriers, I will take my golden parachute from the FC seat I bought for 10 dollars."

I tend to think that us on FT are in the know sooner than most FFs, but these non FTs catch up quick and will soon discover these changes are not for the better. I don't think the new united has even begun to see the financial impact(for the worse) of these changes and they will come.

"You'll see a number of changes......and I think you'll like them"

I think this is worth a shot.

Question is, will Smisek & Co. actually listen? And do they really care?

"You vill see a number of changes.....and I think you vill like them.....or else."

Clubbing the Kettles
 

This Jeffersonian will never discourage the people from uprising against their oppressors. But your movement isn't against oppression. Indeed, it oppresses non-elites. Why take away the little guy's right to buy something at booking time that you get for free!? Why must you make us worse off to make you better off? Don't we Kettles have little enough already? Will your uprising trample management...or Ma and Pa? :confused:

RNE, reiterating, "Fight for your goals! But don't delude yourself about whom you're hurting."

I'm in I hit the MM this year, and have been flying CO for many many years. I have flown on other carriers just a handful of time. I would like to think that I will continue to fly the new United. However I have seen a reduction in benefits, and do get the sense that the management has adopted a "We really don't give a dam" attitude. I would don't post a lot but read FT almost everyday.
Anyway enough rambling, count me IN!!

So how do we start this up? Is there a list to put my name on?

I agree with the poster that said we should join efforts with like minded UA folk.

We should have someone liaise with the more advanced UA movement.

Count me in for my full support. By the way, where is CO Insider these days?

He now shares a logon with a COolaider whom posts with a conflict of interest. Look through the first page of this thread and see if you can spot him.

Actually, look through just about any complaint thread.

Count me in as well.

I remember when Gordon wanted to only give us 50% EQM on the cheap fares and we all complained. He then changed it to 100% if purchased on line. We all need to stick together -- WE ARE CO's BEST Customers!

If CO Insider is around, why is he ignoring all the chatter on the selling upgrades on day of departure thread? Has Continental silenced him on this? He posted a while back and said something like he was "checking into this" but never reappeared. Very strange. We need to get more organized as a group.

I'm going to find the original organizers of SaveSkymiles to see if they can offer any tips to help us get started.

Meanwhile, we should build an issues list.

So far, I have the following key issues:

1) Selling ELR seats to non-Elites before OLCI

2) Lack of transparency in, and uneven/strange implementation of FC buy-up program

I think those are main items right now, unless anyone can suggest anything else. My bigger concern is what's yet to come.

Free? You seem to forget how loyalty programs and their elite levels work. You hand the airline a ton of money over the course of the year, and in return they give you some benefits. If I could just buy all those benefits for tens of dollars when I need/want them, there would be no reason for me to be loyal to an airline. And if they were priced such that tons of non-elites do just that, the benefits would no longer be available for "free" for elites (e.g. The number of ELR sets is a limited resource).

Oh, I have a wild hunch that EUAs may have a smidgen of bearing on the reasons one might remain loyal to an airline, but let me address simply E+ for example. If the Kettle-paid tens-of-dollars outrage is truly the crux of this tempest in a teapot (Get it? Kettle, teapot? Golly, my prose is brilliant!), then one must suppose that if the airline were to sell every E+ seat to a Kettle for, oh, I don't know, say $1000 a piece, then elites would merrily squeeze into knee-torturing E- seats, content in the knowledge that their unavailable E+ seats did not go for tens of dollars.

RNE, concluding, ":rolleyes:".

Good idea.
 

I love the utter confusion in this thread. This is a great example of it - you liked the fact that UA were generating incremental revenue from selling E+ to non-elites, while the main argument that the OP could muster up is the outrage that is CO selling ELR seats before OLCI? And you're on board with this "movement"? :D

Show me something of substance that we should be upset about and then maybe some of the more rational posters on this board may join - at the moment this is just confused whining because you feel that "something" should be done ^

Simple.

On the average CO plane there are 4 good ELR seats. You don't need a lot of kettles to buy up to those 4 seats.

On UA, the difference is the sheer inventory of E+ seats. On mainlne, it's a minimum of 36 seats, all the way up to 104 seats.

When you have that many seats with good to excellent leg room, a few kettles buying up is a non-issue.

If CO had ~1/3 of the Y cabin to upsell as E+, then I don't think too many of us would have serious issues with it. Those few Exit row seats are the only stab at decent room in Y for plats and golds that are increasingly finding their butts in Y.

I too think its a big deal, but also the tip of the iceberg. UA's changes were always designed to provide some extra value for the infrequent traveler who wanted an improved experience. E+ & premier line offered some value to non-elites and generally didn't impact the availability of E+ to elites, and it also justified the lower seat count with higher revenue per seat (lately, E+ is becoming a little too full especially on peak flights).

^ to Boca for organizing this movement....keep us informed! :-:

Another conflict of interest person trying to tell us we should just sit back and take it so they can go back to their handlers and spout about what they are attempting to avert.

Come on man...You read the same threads I read. How about you go back 3 years, educate yourself on not so slow and very steady dilution of the OP FF program....then come back and add something intelligent.

You think this is about a single issue or the OCLI process? Give me a break.:rolleyes:

Aside from the fact that there are more E+ seats on UA than there are ELR seats on CO, on UA the exit row seats are not available at booking for the general populace. You have to be a Premier Executive or above to pre-reserve exit row seats. So CO elites are getting the double whammy.

/agreed. Let's look at it from another perspective. As a UA employee, I used to get NRSA F if it wasn't bought or paid for with cash, the finite miles, or finite certs earned at a rate that ensured people would use them judiciously. I heard no cry's of "Hey, UDU isn't fair to the truly LOYAL employees of UA who have not dedicated only some of their flying to UA, but their entire career. Why should UA give infinite upgrades to frequent flyers in exchange for the loyalty that they had before and nothing more, at the expense of their employees?"

Not once did I hear that. I did hear some sympathy, but no one felt it was wrong for UA to coax some potential incremental revenue from ticket sales over the loaylty of employees who are, almost by definition, more loyal to their career than a silver/gold flyer is to any particular airline.

But alas, they sold the loyalty you all tout (of the employees) out in exchange for potential revenue, and that, is OK and fine. Now CO does the same thing to you LOYAL flyers, selling out your free premium seats for some potential incremental revenue, and it isn't fair!

I smell a little hypocrisy in those that think potential revenue > loyalty on one hand, but when they are on the short end of that equation, feel that loyalty > potential revenue. Here is the cake, and here is a fork to eat it. Choose one, but one doesn't get to have the cake and eat it too all the time.

Cash is king, anyone in business knows that. Cash is real $$, "loyalty" is potential money, and it may still be there, but new cash in the pocket is always an instant boost to the bottom line.
Perhaps everyone will defect from NW and DL. Perhaps eveyone will defect from CO/UA. Perhaps AA's labor costs and inefficient fleet will be replaced and AA's stock performance may get somewhere near even the worst of the other carriers with all the DL/NW/UA/CO defectors. Perhaps not. Perhaps the schedule of flying by the new mega-carriers is enough to win the $$ of the corporate travel dept, as they care about getting you to your meeting more than they care about your perks. Convenience to them is cost savings to them. Your exit row to them is not near as important as their bottom line when paying for your time. Perhaps with scheduling options a price is to be paid, and that price is the profitability of the carrier that wins out on the scheduling game, which is UA/CO and DL/NW, not AA.

It's an interesting comparison and I agree that it's a very similar situation. A couple of thoughts/questions:

- do you think UA's UDU change was fair for employees? Are employees in general okay with it, or are they taking this change into consideration in their next round of contract negotiations?

- FTers (representing mostly elite members of loyalty programs) are a group similar like employee groups. We are primarily interested in our own benefits. Selfish, sure, but do pilots give up salary/benefits for the sake of improving the contract of FAs?

Glad to see you here, fastair! Always enjoy your posts over in the UA forum.

You're missing much of the issue here. CO has sold ELR seats, including exit rows, from day one of the ELR program. We never had a big problem with it because those seats were held for Elites until OLCI, then available to anyone who wanted to buy them. The only people affected by this process were SDC/re-routes or very last minute buyers.

What CO is saying now is loyalty revenue is worth less than a few extra dollars from a low-value, unloyal Kettle who books a discount ticket way out and adds an extra $40-80 to their ticket in order to grab a seat with more legroom. Come on, even UA holds exit row seats for Elites! We're talking about an average of 4 really premium and 4 somewhat premium (non-reclining exit) seats across the entire domestic fleet!

So along comes Mr/Mrs Platinum (or worse - a $30K+ Plat) who flies on business and is booking a transcon inside of a week and grabs a fairly expensive K, V, or U fare, which is $100-300 more than the Kettle who spent $200 (+$60) for their ticket - now the Plat is left with a no legroom seat, while the Kettle is hootin' it up in the exit row. How is this good business sense??

That Plat has this experience a few times and then decides to middle-finger CO and starts booking away on a competitor, eventually moving all of their revenue over - and evangelizes their experience and decision to others, who look at doing the same.

How does CO come out a winner here?

It's a stupid business decision from my point of view. I can't think of anything to justify it....except to say to CO's Elite customers - "hey, you can still book ELR seats for free - but if you can find any! Hahaha".

I see the situations as somewhat parallel, though with different channels for remedy.

It's not hypocrisy, rather it's different interests being represented. The customer isn't necessarily as vested in the employee perks/benefits side of things, and since this board is mostly made up of customers, it's the customer's voice that you primarily hear. It's really not my place as a customer to worry about (or even know about) what employees are getting paid, what perks they get, or whatever. That's between them and their employer, and if there's a problem, they need to work it out or leave.

When UDU came out, airline employee discussions were probably along the lines of what you said -- this is a perk/benefit of employment, and it's being eroded away. But it's up to the airline employees to negotiate that with their employer. In fact, you have professional representation to do just that. Next go-around with a contract, I'm sure it will be something that will be taken into consideration. If there were anything legal they could have done immediately, I'm sure the unions would have done that. You pay them to look for these things on your behalf.

As for customers, it's a bit easier for us to vote with our wallet and leave, but we also don't have professional representation, nor a contract to deal with. We have one-sided T&Cs that are sent from the airline to us, and we have to accept, deal, respond, and/or react.

At the same time, shame on you (and the union) for not negotiating ahead of time how the F cabin was to be protected if that was an important perk to you. UDU-style upgrades have been around for well over a decade at other airlines, so it's not like UA did anything revolutionary here. UA employees had even been posting here for years about how they had it so good compared to the CO's and DL's with UDU-style upgrades, and how UA crews ride more in F than their OAL counterparts. If that was so important, it could have been addressed years ago, well before UA even started UDU.

Well, the AFA called it a "kick in the teeth" to the FAs and other employees:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...-upgrades.html

fastair -- if I look through that thread, there are some FTers who expressed sympathy and understanding towards the employee position. Do you still have that asbestos suit around that you put on for this post in that thread? Because you might need it here. I am very tempted to re-write that post, replacing employees with elite customers etc. to see how it would fit into this thread :D

Back to channa -- very good post that I agree with completely.