giblet

My two cents on train travel in China--

I took two overnight trains in a three day period a few weeks ago. Both were K trains and I took one hard and one soft sleeper.

The soft sleeper was more luxurious but as jiejie had warned, I felt very uncomfortable being in a tiny, closed room with three men. Especially considering that all three of them watched me for hours until the lights were off. I was on the upper bunk and the guy across stared at me directly and then the guys on the lower bunk watched me through the mirror on the door! None of them had brought books or any form of entertainment, so I guess I was it. I would not recommend this for women traveling alone. It didn't feel unsafe, exactly, it just felt creepy.

The hard sleeper was much better because it wasn't an enclosed space, there were more people and there were more women.

I can't say that I got much sleep on either, to be honest. The train stopped every 30 min and this woke me up every time. If I were to do it again I'd take a sleeping pill.

I ended up opting to fly rather than take a hard seat trip. A girl I was traveling with said it was one of the worst experiences of her life. She said that any time she did try and fall asleep she'd wake up to the sound of camera phones taking pictures of her! (She is blond)

Overall I am very glad I took the train in China, and would recommend a hard sleeper. That said, now that I've done it I think I'd usually rather fly if the price isn't too much more (and it usually isn't).

anacapamalibu

Thanks for the tip. Will finally get some authentic Hunan fish head.

mosburger

Didn't the SAR government already approve a huge underground highspeed line and terminus in Kowloon? The cost is supposed to be prohibitive but it seems to have been "an offer you cannot refuse".

Guangzhou - Wuhan should get the CRH3 that is based on the German Siemens Velaro/ICE3.

Haven't tried it in China but 1st class on the European ICE3 is rather comfortable and one can hope the Chinese version still features a real dining car with kitchen while that has been eliminated in Europe.

YuropFlyer

How is 78 Euro for a first class ride (or 49 Euro for a 2nd class) for a high-speed train running 1000km overpriced for you? And please, don't come with the argument that many Chinese can't afford it. 490 RMB isn't that much of a sum for a growing middle class in China. And I wonder where you can find 56 RMB tickets for that ride... will that be in the luggage car?

The premium asked for this trully high-speed service seems very reasonable for me, I was expecting it to be higher. Don't forget, they built new tracks all the way along, new stations, new material (trains), they don't want to fight the current train system for those who can't afford the highspeed train, but rather offer an alternative to taking the aircraft for those with money. 1000km in 3 hours from city center to city center beats aircraft hands down. They price it around the same as airfares as they can do this. Why shouldn't they not? China isn't a Communist country anymore (well, it is by definition, but we all know what I mean) they're about making cash with this line. Not building a stupid prestige object.

I'm looking forward for Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway service. Imagine.. travelling from the North of China to the South, in less than a day.. and that will be finished in a few years!

Once petrol gets more expensive again (and that will happen!) the investions China is doing into its train network will pay off even more.

anacapamalibu

I would speculate 95% of the population could not afford to travel on the new train. Middle class in China?

Shanghai Maglev - Stupid Prestige Object
Tianjin High Speed Rail - Olympic Prestige Object

This new line is just another white elephant that will never see any financial profit and the sole purpose is prestige propaganda.

anacapamalibu

I don't think your gonna find "haute cuisine" on this or any other train
in China.

http://www.lifeofguangzhou.com/node_...00472488.shtml

mosburger

Several Chinese friends, not just middle class but fairly wealthy, prefer to use trains for their business travel even today. For example the Shanghai - Beijing night trains on the existing "slow" tracks.

I would imagine the new service will be filled to the brim with sales reps and other business travellers. China is like Russia, a country where people love their trains and train travel.

The Tianjin track and similar new projects in the Shanghai region are changing urban landscapes by making everyday commuting faster and simpler than before. Especially in the Yangtze delta I'd expect a huge number of Shanghai residents will be looking to relocate to either Suzhou or Wuxi once the new connections are there.

mosburger

As long as they have a steam oven instead of microwaving the dishes I'm a happy camper. But Grrrr, the demise of train restaurants everywhere is not an aspect to be considered "development".

anacapamalibu

Might as well like it. Up until the last ten years it was the only affordable
means of transportation.

mosburger

That's also true. But even then you notice how important a part train travel is in Chinese life and psyche.

Btw, just found an english language news piece from CCTV 9 about the maiden Wuhan - Guangzhou journey. The new Wuhan main station looks quite impressive, doesn't it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-blGN-CxPac

moondog

I disagree there. Once the entire line (between BJ and GZ) is complete, I imagine it will open up all sorts of new markets.

Jamoldo

A lot of very solid arguments, but I think that you are really missing the point regarding affordability. While the prices might not be "overpriced" for many of us here, or even the initial target market, both constitute such a small minority of Chinese train travel, that such thinking is unrealistic. While gov't officials and business travellers can and will make use of such a service, the pricing is hardly suitable for ordinary folks in China.

With mean (not median - I suspect this is lower) per capita income of about $3200 (~$270/month) on a nominal (not PPP) basis (hey nothing's perfect), such an expenditure (49 Euros or over $70) for a 1 way ticket on a per person basis is quite an expenditure. Or let's play with some more numbers.

Let's use PPP GDP per capita (once again ignoring median income and using mean rather than median). On a PPP basis GDP per capita in China is about $6100 (~$508/month). The cost of a one way ticket, per person is much more attractive than in the case above, but most certainly not cheap or very attractively priced for someone with an "average" or "middle class" income.

The 56 RMB ticket would be a hard seater (and maybe standing up), and having never done it myself, I am sure it would be like the luggage car (or worse), though I feel this will remain the option of choice for most train travellers in China, given the price and availability. However, for a small premium one could do the hard sleeper (numerous threads on how to try and get them here - which shows it can be quite a challenge), which does the trick.

I am sure tickets for these lines will not be too hard to get initially, since getting soft sleeper (a much cheaper option on slow trains even when they were the only show in town) never seemed difficult at all. I think I just found a reason to go to Guangzhou though...

A number of solid comments in the previous posts above though ^

anacapamalibu

Impressive to whom?

Youtube is blocked in China, here's a direct link. http://english.cctv.com/video/china/

anacapamalibu

Definately it will facilitate travel for Guangdong government officials and factory owners to lobby in Bejing. As far as a public works project. I don't
in the near future see many of the 20 million factory workers standing in
line for this train to return home for spring festival.

mosburger

At least to anyone who has used the current "old style" train stations more than they care to remember...As they are neither classical Chinese in style nor especially functional.

Domestic flying in China is not particularly enjoyable IMHO with the exception of Dragonair routes so a big thumbs up for viable alternatives.