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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   So what exactly creates probable cause? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/946595-so-what-exactly-creates-probable-cause.html)

FWAAA May 1, 2009 1:21 pm


Originally Posted by Spiff (Post 11678212)
Uh, no it hasn't.

Perhaps one can argue that it's been around since Comrade TSA infected the checkpoint, but it definitely has not always been a part of checkpoint screening.

Exactly. For many years, I passed thru checkpoints without showing anyone an ID or a boarding pass.

In foreign countries, the checkpoint employees merely glance at my passport and boarding pass. They aren't as obsessed with making the big catch as are the TSA screeners and their dimwit bosses.

Even CBP officers here don't scrutinize my passport as thoroughly as the TSA drone. They merely swipe it and stamp it. No blacklight. No loupe. No looking at my passport like they're trying to grade a diamond. Just swipe and stamp.

Bart May 1, 2009 1:25 pm

*****

Bart May 1, 2009 1:30 pm

*****

DevilDog438 May 1, 2009 1:34 pm


Originally Posted by Bart (Post 11678514)
US currency is not contraband. There is no TSA directive that makes it contraband.

Not according to this thread - which has the text of OD-400-54-2. Also discussed in detail in other threads on this board and over in PV.

Bart May 1, 2009 1:41 pm

*****

DevilDog438 May 1, 2009 1:46 pm


Originally Posted by DevilDog438 (Post 11678563)
Not according to this thread - which has the text of OD-400-54-2. Also discussed in detail in other threads on this board and over in PV.

Blogdad Bob's comment on PV.

Discussed also on Pilots of America discussion forums.

Mr. Gel-pack May 1, 2009 1:48 pm

Much of the "prohibited items list" is mission creep. Many of the items are neither dangerous nor illegal; TSA just puts them on the list to make its job of screening easier. Because it is too hard to tell a snow-globe from a grenade on the x-ray, snow-globes are prohibited. Water is subject to "voluntary surrender" as a prohibited item. Pushing legal, non-explosive, non-weapons onto the prohibited items list makes cheese, dirt, and the artful concealment thereof into "probable cause" for some fuzzy grey-area crime that only the TSA has the SSI to adjudicate, with their airport LEOs as enforcement. To me, that opaque lack of due process what seems so unamerican about TSA.

Catching "prohibited items" is an important performance metric for TSA self promotion, and expanding the list with things like realistic replicas of IED components doesn't do a darn thing towards the weapons, explosives, and incendiaries that are supposed to be TSA's mission. With much of the prohibited items list, TSA has expanded its mission to cover lots of non-dangerous things much more likely to be discovered, which probably makes the screening job much less boring and makes the budget justification process much easier.

In other words, if, out of an abundance of caution, you can put bushes and pointy rocks as suspiciously wolf-like objects on your prohibited items list, you cannot be held accountable for crying "wolf" every week-at-a-glance.

AngryMiller May 1, 2009 1:52 pm


Originally Posted by Bart (Post 11678606)
US currency is not on the TSA prohibited items list; it is not illegal contraband; it is not a primary trigger for a property search by a TSO. I can't make it any plainer than that.

Of course, in GUWonder's eyes, I'm just a plain ol' liar.

You decide.

Hmmm, liar (your words), in denial, covering for TSA, etc? So is the document quoted just a fantasy? Is it no longer operative? Why did Blogger Bob at PV quote that document?

DevilDog438 May 1, 2009 1:53 pm


Originally Posted by Bart (Post 11678606)
US currency is not on the TSA prohibited items list; it is not illegal contraband; it is not a primary trigger for a property search by a TSO. I can't make it any plainer than that.

Of course, in GUWonder's eyes, I'm just a plain ol' liar.

You decide.

Bart,

You stated, definitively, that there is no TSA operational directive proclaiming US currency to be contraband. I was showing you that, in multiple places, including an actual Operational Directive whose source information was posted on the PV by one of the TSA Bloggers, it is defined as "contraband."

Why you are pulling GUWonder into this particular context, I don't know, since I was addressing your definitively worded reply to Boggie Dog and, quite frankly, how you think you look in GUWonder's eyes is not germane to the issue about which I was posting.

ND Sol May 1, 2009 1:53 pm


Originally Posted by Bart (Post 11678193)
Travel document checking is a part of checkpoint screening. Always has been. So I don't know how you can consider it mission creep.

A government agency taking over a function that was performed by a private entity is mission creep.


Originally Posted by Bart (Post 11678193)
So, a young lady passes a note to a TSO pleading for help and/or getting the cops. But, it's not on the prohibited items list, eh?

How is that a product of an administrative search? It's not even an illegal item. :confused:


Originally Posted by Bart (Post 11678606)
US currency is not on the TSA prohibited items list; it is not illegal contraband; it is not a primary trigger for a property search by a TSO. I can't make it any plainer than that.

It is contraband according to the TSA Directive. Since I am not aware of any contraband that is legal, "I can't make it any plainer than that."

T-the-B May 1, 2009 1:53 pm


Originally Posted by Bart (Post 11677815)

But let me ask you the flip side of the question: are you advocating that TSOs ignore suspicious incidents simply because the matter doesn't fall squarely within the parameter of prohibited items?

You ask a valid question and I'll try to give a serious response.

Yes. I do want TSOs to ignore suspicious incidents.

My focus on this is not on the word "ignore" but on the word "suspicious". "Suspicion" used in the context of this thread does not mean some vague, undefined uncertainty. If a LEO is going to be involved, and if TSOs are acting under the color of law, suspicion (or at least the term "reasonable suspicion") has a legal definition. We have plentiful accounts in the news of TSOs demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of what constitutes "reasonable suspicion". There is, I suspect, a good reason for this. I would bet that TSA has provided no practical training to its screener force on what "reasonable suspicion" is and how to apply that standard in their work.

Listing cash as "contraband" and requiring referral to a LEO when a screener encounters a wad-o-cash is a clear example of creating "suspicion" where none exists. Screeners should ignore non-prohibited "suspicious" items not because its gives would-be malefactors a free pass, but because screeners have no concept of which non-prohibited items are, in fact, "suspicious".

Mr. Gel-pack May 1, 2009 1:54 pm


Originally Posted by DevilDog438 (Post 11678642)
Blogdad Bob's comment on PV.

Discussed also on Pilots of America discussion forums.

TSA's radical blogging skilz make broken links -- remove the ?showComment=..... junk as in the above and they sometimes work.

PTravel May 1, 2009 1:59 pm


Originally Posted by Bart (Post 11678539)
As you know, counselor, police officers can exercise discretion.

Absolutely. I'm not questioning the discretion of a police officer, but the liability of a TSO in "reporting" a non-crime to a police officer. My understanding is that a TSO who makes such a report is no different than any other non-LEO citizen. If I approach a LEO and say, "I suspect that man of a crime because he has an illegal radio," I could be liable for doing so. I see no reason why a TSO would not be similarly liable, e.g. "I suspect this man to be a drug dealer because he has $4,300 in a metal box. I'm reporting it to a LEO."


Happens all the time even with drug paraphernalia. A TSO looking for a pocket knife also finds a crack pipe. When the supervisor notifies the LEO, the police officer decides to issue a verbal warning to the passenger rather than haul him away in handcuffs. And why? Because the airport LEO knows that even if there's residue on the pipe, the city police aren't going to pursue the matter.
You misunderstand my question, which was: is a TSO subject to liability for making a false police report if, in fact, he does. Example: I carry syringes for which I have a prescription (I need them to inject Imitrex, a migraine medication, for which I also have a prescription). If a TSO calls over a LEO and says, "I've found drug paraphernalia," I believe he should be liable for filing a false police report. Similarly, I carry oxycodone with me all the time, for which I have a prescription (also needed for migraines). If a TSO reports me to a LEO because, "I'm carrying narcotics," I believe the TSO should be liable for making a false police report.


Conclusion: a TSO is still obligated to report certain instances to the supervisor.
A supervisor is not a LEO. I don't really care to whom a TSO reports, as long as he doesn't attempt to detain me or unlawfully seize my possessions.


A supervisor is still obligated to refer certain matters to the LEO.
Again, this misses the point of my question. A supervisor is not a LEO. I don't care if the employment policies of TSA are such that, as a condition of employment, a TSO or his supervisor is required to report things to a LEO. That is not a defense to making a false police report, nor is it a defense to such other torts as false imprisonment, theft, conversion or abuse of legal process.


The LEO has the discretion how to handle the situation.
A LEO who abuses his discretion can be liable for, among other things, false arrest.


The TSO doesn't have that discretion. The supervisor doesn't have that discretion. The LEO does.
Sorry, but as we lawyers say: move to strike the answer as non-responsive.

My question goes solely to the ability to hold individual TSOs and supervisors liable as a matter of law for their mistakes.


Have fun suing TSA.
What makes you think I would sue TSA? My question goes to personal liability of the TSO involved, not TSA. It makes not the slightest difference to me what TSA's internal policies are in this regard. Do you think when a mafia hitman says, "I was required by my organization to knock-off that rat," that's a legally-cognizable defense to murder?

law dawg May 1, 2009 2:02 pm


Originally Posted by Trollkiller (Post 11674617)
You may want to be careful with the inventory search. I remember something recent about inventory searches but right now I can't think what it is. I know it was negative because I thought I should tell my brother, he is a cop, to be careful.

Argggg :mad: I hate it when something is right there and I can't think of it. Time to go hunting.

I recommend inventory searches as a way to protect the LEO so the arrestee doesn't come back later complaining of their missing $10,000 power tool. :)

law dawg May 1, 2009 2:07 pm


Originally Posted by RichardKenner (Post 11675003)
Then let's take a hypothetical here and produce the totality of the situation. A TSO notifies you that somebody has what's obviously a very large amount of money in their bag (say, $20k). The original reason that the TSO went into the person's bag turned out to be nothing (an odd-looking shadow that looked suspicious on x-ray). There's nothing else suspicous about this person.

The person showed the TSO a boarding pass for a domestic flight to a city that could be an international gateway (e.g., JFK, MIA, LAX), but could also be the termination of his travel.

He's polite and answers all questions you ask about his identity. However, when you ask "where did you get the cash?", "are you traveling internationally", and "did you file the form to declare that cash", he politely refuses to answer any of those questions.

Where are you now? What can you do?

You can't hold his refusal to answer the questions against him, nor can you use it to create probably cause or even reasonable suspicion.

Correct.


You know he hasn't commited the crime of taking money out of the country without filing the required papers because he hasn't left the country yet.

Could you even find out from the airline if he was connecting internationally without a warrant?
Yes.


Does carrying that amount of money constitute probably cause to suspect he might be a drug dealer? If so, what would be the next step of the "investigation" if he refused to answer any question that would either admit or deny that fact (and he should not answer any such question for reasons that have been discussed numerous times)?
Really probable cause is established by so many things it's hard to describe. There is a whole world of non-verbals missing here. Demeanor, evasiveness, etc.

Based just what on you wrote, I'd refer it to CBP and let them make the call. It's their purview anyway. :D


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