Community
Wiki Posts
Search

A functional binary bomb!

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Feb 26, 2008 | 6:20 pm
  #61  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,704
Originally Posted by exerda
Yes, although if we've got terrorists carrying dirty bomb materials aboard planes, we've got more to worry about than the water carnival, too.
No kidding.

(And at that point, a dirty bomb on the ground becomes a national security threat as well; set one off in lower Manhattan or on the National Mall and you've achieved the same goals, largely--and perhaps more effectively so--than setting it off in the air.)
Absolutely. Whereas a normal bomb going off may or may not be a national security issue, depending upon location for the most part.
law dawg is offline  
Old Feb 26, 2008 | 6:23 pm
  #62  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,704
Originally Posted by graraps
How well-scrutinised are takeoffs from small airfields? Are pilots scanned for explosives etc?

And some radioactive explosion can't happen in a tube train? How well are these scrutinised?
Then it comes down to what level of damage a small plane can do, in and of itself. No more than a car or van could, if also loaded up with explosives (ala Oklahoma).

Yes it's still in the airspace but how big a threat is it? A commercial jet? A lot.

Also, private versus commercial plays a significant role. Governmental intrusions into private planes would be Constitutionally less than commercial. If it's open to the public the government can step in easier than if it's not.
law dawg is offline  
Old Feb 26, 2008 | 6:25 pm
  #63  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,788
Originally Posted by law dawg
Then it comes down to what level of damage a small plane can do, in and of itself. No more than a car or van could, if also loaded up with explosives.
Or it could be a cropduster with any number of unspeakable things in the hopper.
birdstrike is offline  
Old Feb 26, 2008 | 6:27 pm
  #64  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,704
Originally Posted by birdstrike
Or it could be a cropduster with any number of unspeakable things in the hopper.
For sure. But then it's private, which means the G needs some type of reasonable suspicion for searches. Admin searches don't work on private planes.
law dawg is offline  
Old Feb 26, 2008 | 7:44 pm
  #65  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
10 Countries Visited500k30 Nights20 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
Originally Posted by law dawg
For sure. But then it's private, which means the G needs some type of reasonable suspicion for searches. Admin searches don't work on private planes.
Given their creativity with the Constitution lately, I'm sure they could weasel some way to make an admin search.

Do you want to fly that plane today?
Superguy is offline  
Old Feb 26, 2008 | 10:34 pm
  #66  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: AA, WN RR
Posts: 3,122
Originally Posted by Superguy
Given their creativity with the Constitution lately, I'm sure they could weasel some way to make an admin search.

Do you want to fly that plane today?
FAA licenses pilots and issues certificates for airplanes, right? There is the ability of the Federales to impose administrative searches on private aviation. The feds could also claim Interstate Commerce Clause as basis for searches.
PatrickHenry1775 is offline  
Old Feb 26, 2008 | 10:45 pm
  #67  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
10 Countries Visited
Conversation Starter
All eyes on you!
20 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 47,152
Originally Posted by PatrickHenry1775
FAA licenses pilots and issues certificates for airplanes, right? There is the ability of the Federales to impose administrative searches on private aviation. The feds could also claim Interstate Commerce Clause as basis for searches.
The FAA has little interest in searching GA - the TSA has claimed it has the right to search pilots, bags and aircraft, but so far no plan has been created since the entire concept of dispatching screeners to the literally thousands of GA airports across the country is beyond ludicrous.

Dispatching them only to 'key' airports or the FBOs at large commercial service airports would only harass customers and drive GA to other facilities - the economic backlash would end any such initiative quickly.

The first time a TSA person attempts to block a private aviator from flying his/her own aircraft will be the first time a TSA person ends up sprawled across the pavement looking like one big bruise.
bocastephen is offline  
Old Feb 26, 2008 | 10:50 pm
  #68  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,077
Originally Posted by Superguy
.... I'm sure they could weasel some way to make an admin search.
Making misrepresentations to get "consent" to access private property and check it out is something that does happen.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Feb 26, 2008 | 10:52 pm
  #69  
Moderator: Coupon Connection & S.P.A.M
50 Countries Visited
5M
All eyes on you!
25 Years on Site
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Louisville, KY
Programs: Destination Unknown, TSA Disparager Diamond (LTDD)
Posts: 58,132
Originally Posted by GUWonder
Making misrepresentations to get "consent" to access private property and check it out is something that does happen.
And should be severely punished with fines and prison time.
Spiff is offline  
Old Feb 27, 2008 | 2:09 am
  #70  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Doha, Qatar
Programs: Air Canada Aeroplan, Lufthansa Miles & More, Flying Blue, Hyatt Gold Passport
Posts: 1,894
Originally Posted by whirledtraveler
My position is that there is no such thing as safety. Safety is just a comforting illusion.

You face more danger when you step into a car than when you step into an airplane. That's never going to change, and because people react emotionally the chances of having less goofball-ish security in airports are slim.
I agree completely, but I have never seen a more articulate discussion of America's obsession with "security" than the recent opinion piece by James Carroll, recently published originally in the Boston Globe and subsequently in the IHT. The piece can be found here

Caroll focuses more on America's obsession with military power as a source of security, but I believe his observations apply equally to other facets of American society -- the misguided belief that societal disorders can be solved through the application of increased force (hence the huge prison population and the stubborn insistence on retaining the death penalty), the delusion that the answer to terrorism is to declare "war" on it, and of course, the elaborate government-funded security theatre carried out in airports, rail stations, shopping malls and other public places that is designed to create the appearance that the government is "doing something."

From Caroll's opinion piece:

"In this era, humans have been cut loose from ancient moorings of meaning and purpose. The context within which this condition is most manifest in the United States is the debate - or, more precisely, the lack thereof - over what is called "national security." The phrase is potent because it promises something that is impossible, since the human condition is by definition insecure. When candidates vie with one another over who is most qualified to be "commander in chief," and when they unanimously promise to strengthen military readiness, they together reinforce the dominant American myth - that an extravagant social investment of treasure and talent in armed power of the group offers members of the group escape from the existential dread that comes with life on a dangerous planet. That such investment only makes the planet more dangerous matters little, since the feeling of security, rather than actual security, is the goal of the entire project."
polonius is offline  
Old Feb 27, 2008 | 7:48 am
  #71  
10 Countries Visited
20 Countries Visited
30 Countries Visited
15 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DCA / WAS
Programs: DL 2+ million/PM, YX, Marriott Plt, *wood gold, HHonors, CO Plt, UA, AA EXP, WN, AGR
Posts: 9,386
Originally Posted by bocastephen
The FAA has little interest in searching GA - the TSA has claimed it has the right to search pilots, bags and aircraft, but so far no plan has been created since the entire concept of dispatching screeners to the literally thousands of GA airports across the country is beyond ludicrous.

Dispatching them only to 'key' airports or the FBOs at large commercial service airports would only harass customers and drive GA to other facilities - the economic backlash would end any such initiative quickly.

The first time a TSA person attempts to block a private aviator from flying his/her own aircraft will be the first time a TSA person ends up sprawled across the pavement looking like one big bruise.
Yabut the DCA Access Program puts GA through TSA screening and requires an FAM aboard any plane flying into DCA. Further, when the Federales have tightened restrictions on the DC area GA airports, they've mandated that GA planes stop at a gateway airport for a search prior to being allowed in.

Here's an example from 2003:
3/1105 - FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS. EFFECTIVE 0302101100 UTC (0600 LOCAL 02/10/03) UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, NO PERSON MAY OPERATE AN AIRCRAFT TO, FROM, OR BETWEEN THE COLLEGE PARK AIRPORT (CGS), POTOMAC AIRFIELD (VKX) OR WASHINGTON EXECUTIVE/ HYDE FIELD (W32), EXCEPT UNDER THE FOLLOWING PROVISIONS: A. IN ADDITION TO THE SECURITY PROVISIONS SPECIFIED IN SFAR94, ALL PERSONS MUST COMPLY WITH THESE SUPPLEMENTAL REQUIREMENTS. 1. AIRCRAFT MUST UNDERGO SECURITY INSPECTION BY A TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION INSPECTOR PRIOR TO DEPARTURE FROM THE AIRPORTS ABOVE. 2. EXCEPT AS PROVIDED FOR IN NUMBER 4 BELOW, AIRCRAFT MUST LAND AT AN IDENTIFIED GATEWAY AIRPORT FOR SECURITY INSPECTION PRIOR TO RETURNING TO THE AIRPORTS ABOVE. 3. UPON COMPLETION OF THE SECURITY INSPECTION AT THE GATEWAY AIRPORT, AIRCRAFT MUST PROCEED DIRECTLY TO THE DESTINATION AIRPORT WITH NO INTERMEDIATE STOPS. 4. IF AN AIRCRAFT DEPARTS FROM ONE OF THE AIRPORTS ABOVE, RECEIVES FLIGHT FOLLOWING AND REMAINS IN CONTACT WITH ATC FOR THE DURATION OF THE FLIGHT, AND MAKES NO INTERMEDIATE STOPS, THE AIRCRAFT MAY RETURN TO THE AIRPORTS ABOVE WITHOUT FIRST LANDING AT AN IDENTIFIED GATEWAY AIRPORT. B. LEE AIRPORT (ANP) IS AN IDENTIFIED GATEWAY AIRPORT. ADDITIONAL SITES WILL BE IDENTIFIED IN THE FUTURE. WIE UNTIL UFN
As for the inspections, I am reminded of what the security idiots did at Meigs (before Daley closed it, but after 9/11, and pre-TSA).... in several cases, they took pens and pencils away from pilots that had to go through security clearance. Pretty tough to write down an IFR clearance when you have no pencil or pen (notwithstanding that these were the PILOTS.... what were they going to do? Stab themselves?)
Global_Hi_Flyer is offline  
Old Feb 27, 2008 | 9:36 am
  #72  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
10 Countries Visited
Conversation Starter
All eyes on you!
20 Years on Site
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 47,152
Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer
Yabut the DCA Access Program puts GA through TSA screening and requires an FAM aboard any plane flying into DCA. Further, when the Federales have tightened restrictions on the DC area GA airports, they've mandated that GA planes stop at a gateway airport for a search prior to being allowed in.

Here's an example from 2003:


As for the inspections, I am reminded of what the security idiots did at Meigs (before Daley closed it, but after 9/11, and pre-TSA).... in several cases, they took pens and pencils away from pilots that had to go through security clearance. Pretty tough to write down an IFR clearance when you have no pencil or pen (notwithstanding that these were the PILOTS.... what were they going to do? Stab themselves?)
Point taken, but I thought a good chunk of GA started avoiding the DC area after all this started anyway, and for this reason. I don't remember the last time a private GA aircraft flew to/from DCA because of the FAM requirement, and there are plenty of airports in suburban VA and MD which don't have these restrictions.

If the TSA tried to implement this as a system-wide program, you can bet there would be plenty of screaming.

I am surprised at the Meigs incident - perhaps it was close to 9/11 and pilots deferred more to the TSA, but why did they allow their stuff to be taken away from use on their own aircraft? Who established the TSA's authority to screen GA pilots/passengers at Meigs?
bocastephen is offline  
Old Feb 27, 2008 | 9:45 am
  #73  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Soon to be LEGT
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by law dawg
Also, private versus commercial plays a significant role. Governmental intrusions into private planes would be Constitutionally less than commercial. If it's open to the public the government can step in easier than if it's not.
Exactly.
The basic law of system security is that a system can only be as secure as its weakest link. This applies to any system, from the infection-control in your car's air conditioning to a corporate intranet to the system of airspace control.
As governments seem hellbent on securing already reasonably good security procedures while keeping the weakest links every bit as weak as they've always been, the whole process will remain pointless at best and downright disingenuous at worst.
graraps is offline  
Old Feb 27, 2008 | 10:01 am
  #74  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,972
Ah Jeez. The dirty bomb myth and the little airplane specter. Trifecta anyone ?
Wally Bird is offline  
Old Feb 27, 2008 | 10:10 am
  #75  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,704
Originally Posted by graraps
Exactly.
The basic law of system security is that a system can only be as secure as its weakest link. This applies to any system, from the infection-control in your car's air conditioning to a corporate intranet to the system of airspace control.
As governments seem hellbent on securing already reasonably good security procedures while keeping the weakest links every bit as weak as they've always been, the whole process will remain pointless at best and downright disingenuous at worst.
True, but what can they do? The Constitution is quite clear on the point. You must have some kind of line. And there is return on investment as well - which is the bigger threat? Where should you spend your money?

It's like the border - the Canadian border is bigger but has far fewer agents because the money is better spent at the southern because it's far busier.
law dawg is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.