TSA Wants to Know Where I'm Going
Aug 10, 2007, 2:20 pm
#106
Join Date: Jan 2007
Programs: AC, SWA, AA, NWA, EVA
Posts: 359
I really don't want to tell anyone anything more than I have to do. I wonder if Bart or another TSA person could tell us what their take is on asking these questions? I'm sure they can ask any question they want, but what if you refuse to answer or if you lie to them. Is there a legal penalty for that consequence?
I feel the same way about those questions as reporting that you are carrying more than $10,000 or more cash. I understand the usefulness of security knowing about it, but I would not want to set myself up as an easy target. I don't want to tell an individual about it, since it's already logged in elsewhere. That just seems nosy.
I feel the same way about those questions as reporting that you are carrying more than $10,000 or more cash. I understand the usefulness of security knowing about it, but I would not want to set myself up as an easy target. I don't want to tell an individual about it, since it's already logged in elsewhere. That just seems nosy.
Last edited by coxta; Aug 10, 2007 at 8:04 pm
Aug 10, 2007, 2:50 pm
#107
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Near Chicago and Under the MDW and ORD Flight Paths, IL, USA
Programs: UA recovering Premier
Posts: 946
I feel the same way about those questions as reporting that you are carrying more than $10,000 or more cash. I understand the usefulness of security knowing about it, but I would not want to set myself up as an easy target. I don't want to tell an individual about it, since it's already logged in elsewhere. That just seems nosy.
To my knowledge, TSA has no authority to ask you about your travel plans and there is no legal recourse if you refuse to answer. That, however, would likely not stop a determined TSAer from going the "Do you want to fly today?" route. My guess, however, is that preventing you from flying with the rationale that you didn't answer a SPOT question wouldn't survive the test of litigation; however, I suspect that the reason for preventing you from flying would not be refusing to answer the SPOT questions. They'd find something else.
The other trump card here is the Federal Privacy Act.
You could go the route of:
TSA: "Where you headed today and for what purpose?"
p1: "Under provisions of the Federal Privacy Act, you are required to inform me about the authority for this request and whether or not the request constitutes a mandate or is voluntary."
Then, under provisions of the Federal Privacy Act, they would also have to disclose...
p1: "Why do you need to know?"
p1: "What are you going to do with that information?"
p1: "I would like a copy of your data collection records on me."
p1: "Where is the collection of records maintained?"
Aug 10, 2007, 3:10 pm
#108
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
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It's all relative IMO. The footpint of a terrorist act can be large, but other crimes are so prevalent that people don't think about their impact on society. The threat from terrorism inside the US is essentially non-existent when compared to the threat of being raped, mugged, robbed, or having your identity stolen. I'm much more concerned about those things than I am about terrorism.
Aug 10, 2007, 3:12 pm
#109
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sacramento
Programs: UA 2MM/GS; SPG Lifetime Plat; MHC Lifetime; Tar Heel forever; and I "Dig the Pig" at Piggly Wiggly
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This will shut them up.
"Well, my parents were on a walk after dinner last night; some drunk teen ran them over and killed them. I have to go to the morgue to identify the bodies.
I hope you'll have a better day than me!"
"Well, my parents were on a walk after dinner last night; some drunk teen ran them over and killed them. I have to go to the morgue to identify the bodies.
I hope you'll have a better day than me!"
Aug 10, 2007, 3:15 pm
#110
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
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I feel the same way about those questions as reporting that you are carrying more than $10,000 or more cash. I understand the usefulness of security knowing about it, but I would not want to set myself up as an easy target. I don't want to tell an individual about it, since it's already logged in elsewhere. That just seems nosy.
Aug 10, 2007, 6:39 pm
#111
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Programs: Marriott, AA EXP, United, Alaska, AirTran
Posts: 184
Aug 10, 2007, 7:38 pm
#112
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 210
The Law
The other trump card here is the Federal Privacy Act.
You could go the route of:
TSA: "Where you headed today and for what purpose?"
p1: "Under provisions of the Federal Privacy Act, you are required to inform me about the authority for this request and whether or not the request constitutes a mandate or is voluntary."
Then, under provisions of the Federal Privacy Act, they would also have to disclose...
p1: "Why do you need to know?"
p1: "What are you going to do with that information?"
p1: "I would like a copy of your data collection records on me."
p1: "Where is the collection of records maintained?"
You could go the route of:
TSA: "Where you headed today and for what purpose?"
p1: "Under provisions of the Federal Privacy Act, you are required to inform me about the authority for this request and whether or not the request constitutes a mandate or is voluntary."
Then, under provisions of the Federal Privacy Act, they would also have to disclose...
p1: "Why do you need to know?"
p1: "What are you going to do with that information?"
p1: "I would like a copy of your data collection records on me."
p1: "Where is the collection of records maintained?"
Could you please post the U.S. Code or caselaw citation for this? I'd love to look it up in detail. Thanks.
Aug 10, 2007, 7:53 pm
#113
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Somewhere near BWI
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The Privacy Act of 1974, 5 U.S.C. § 552a
(e) Agency requirements
Each agency that maintains a system of records shall--
(1) maintain in its records only such information about an individual as is relevant and necessary to accomplish a purpose of the agency required to be accomplished by statute or by Executive order of the President;
(2) collect information to the greatest extent practicable directly from the subject individual when the information may result in adverse determinations about an individual's rights, benefits, and privileges under Federal programs;
(3) inform each individual whom it asks to supply information, on the form which it uses to collect the information or on a separate form that can be retained by the individual--
(A) the authority (whether granted by statute, or by Executive order of the President) which authorizes the solicitation of the information and whether disclosure of such information is mandatory or voluntary;
(B) the principal purpose or purposes for which the information is intended to be used;
(C) the routine uses which may be made of the information, as published pursuant to paragraph (4)(D) of this subsection; and
(D) the effects on him, if any, of not providing all or any part of the requested information;
(4) subject to the provisions of paragraph (11) of this subsection, publish in the Federal Register upon establishment or revision a notice of the existence and character of the system of records, which notice shall include--
(A) the name and location of the system;
(B) the categories of individuals on whom records are maintained in the system;
(C) the categories of records maintained in the system;
(D) each routine use of the records contained in the system, including the categories of users and the purpose of such use;
(E) the policies and practices of the agency regarding storage, retrievability, access controls, retention, and disposal of the records;
(F) the title and business address of the agency official who is responsible for the system of records;
(G) the agency procedures whereby an individual can be notified at his request if the system of records contains a record pertaining to him;
(H) the agency procedures whereby an individual can be notified at his request how he can gain access to any record pertaining to him contained in the system of records, and how he can contest its content; and
(I) the categories of sources of records in the system;
(5) maintain all records which are used by the agency in making any determination about any individual with such accuracy, relevance, timeliness, and completeness as is reasonably necessary to assure fairness to the individual in the determination;
(6) prior to disseminating any record about an individual to any person other than an agency, unless the dissemination is made pursuant to subsection (b)(2) of this section, make reasonable efforts to assure that such records are accurate, complete, timely, and relevant for agency purposes;
(7) maintain no record describing how any individual exercises rights guaranteed by the First Amendment unless expressly authorized by statute or by the individual about whom the record is maintained or unless pertinent to and within the scope of an authorized law enforcement activity;
(8) make reasonable efforts to serve notice on an individual when any record on such individual is made available to any person under compulsory legal process when such process becomes a matter of public record;
(9) establish rules of conduct for persons involved in the design, development, operation, or maintenance of any system of records, or in maintaining any record, and instruct each such person with respect to such rules and the requirements of this section, including any other rules and procedures adopted pursuant to this section and the penalties for noncompliance;
(10) establish appropriate administrative, technical and physical safeguards to insure the security and confidentiality of records and to protect against any anticipated threats or hazards to their security or integrity which could result in substantial harm, embarrassment, inconvenience, or unfairness to any individual on whom information is maintained;
(11) at least 30 days prior to publication of information under paragraph (4)(D) of this subsection, publish in the Federal Register notice of any new use or intended use of the information in the system, and provide an opportunity for interested persons to submit written data, views, or arguments to the agency; and
(12) if such agency is a recipient agency or a source agency in a matching program with a non-Federal agency, with respect to any establishment or revision of a matching program, at least 30 days prior to conducting such program, publish in the Federal Register notice of such establishment or revision.
Each agency that maintains a system of records shall--
(1) maintain in its records only such information about an individual as is relevant and necessary to accomplish a purpose of the agency required to be accomplished by statute or by Executive order of the President;
(2) collect information to the greatest extent practicable directly from the subject individual when the information may result in adverse determinations about an individual's rights, benefits, and privileges under Federal programs;
(3) inform each individual whom it asks to supply information, on the form which it uses to collect the information or on a separate form that can be retained by the individual--
(A) the authority (whether granted by statute, or by Executive order of the President) which authorizes the solicitation of the information and whether disclosure of such information is mandatory or voluntary;
(B) the principal purpose or purposes for which the information is intended to be used;
(C) the routine uses which may be made of the information, as published pursuant to paragraph (4)(D) of this subsection; and
(D) the effects on him, if any, of not providing all or any part of the requested information;
(4) subject to the provisions of paragraph (11) of this subsection, publish in the Federal Register upon establishment or revision a notice of the existence and character of the system of records, which notice shall include--
(A) the name and location of the system;
(B) the categories of individuals on whom records are maintained in the system;
(C) the categories of records maintained in the system;
(D) each routine use of the records contained in the system, including the categories of users and the purpose of such use;
(E) the policies and practices of the agency regarding storage, retrievability, access controls, retention, and disposal of the records;
(F) the title and business address of the agency official who is responsible for the system of records;
(G) the agency procedures whereby an individual can be notified at his request if the system of records contains a record pertaining to him;
(H) the agency procedures whereby an individual can be notified at his request how he can gain access to any record pertaining to him contained in the system of records, and how he can contest its content; and
(I) the categories of sources of records in the system;
(5) maintain all records which are used by the agency in making any determination about any individual with such accuracy, relevance, timeliness, and completeness as is reasonably necessary to assure fairness to the individual in the determination;
(6) prior to disseminating any record about an individual to any person other than an agency, unless the dissemination is made pursuant to subsection (b)(2) of this section, make reasonable efforts to assure that such records are accurate, complete, timely, and relevant for agency purposes;
(7) maintain no record describing how any individual exercises rights guaranteed by the First Amendment unless expressly authorized by statute or by the individual about whom the record is maintained or unless pertinent to and within the scope of an authorized law enforcement activity;
(8) make reasonable efforts to serve notice on an individual when any record on such individual is made available to any person under compulsory legal process when such process becomes a matter of public record;
(9) establish rules of conduct for persons involved in the design, development, operation, or maintenance of any system of records, or in maintaining any record, and instruct each such person with respect to such rules and the requirements of this section, including any other rules and procedures adopted pursuant to this section and the penalties for noncompliance;
(10) establish appropriate administrative, technical and physical safeguards to insure the security and confidentiality of records and to protect against any anticipated threats or hazards to their security or integrity which could result in substantial harm, embarrassment, inconvenience, or unfairness to any individual on whom information is maintained;
(11) at least 30 days prior to publication of information under paragraph (4)(D) of this subsection, publish in the Federal Register notice of any new use or intended use of the information in the system, and provide an opportunity for interested persons to submit written data, views, or arguments to the agency; and
(12) if such agency is a recipient agency or a source agency in a matching program with a non-Federal agency, with respect to any establishment or revision of a matching program, at least 30 days prior to conducting such program, publish in the Federal Register notice of such establishment or revision.
Aug 10, 2007, 8:11 pm
#114
Join Date: Jan 2007
Programs: AC, SWA, AA, NWA, EVA
Posts: 359
I'm quite aware about the $10k limit of deposit at a bank, etc, and I do understand the usefulness of the information. However, there should be a better solution since it isn't illegal to carry cash in any amount, it's that you have to report it to an airport official and there is no recourse for privacy or personal security.
Aug 11, 2007, 8:46 am
#115
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,974
The Privacy Act of 1974, 5 U.S.C. § 552a
A screener asking impertinent questions does not constitute maintaining a system of records. Unless he/she writes it down, which their SPOTting charade does not require.
All you can do is simply "I decline to answer" and risk the punishment secondary, although citing the requirements of the PA might deflect the questioning. The screener will select you for punishment secondary anyway.
Each agency that maintains a system of records...
All you can do is simply "I decline to answer" and risk the punishment secondary, although citing the requirements of the PA might deflect the questioning. The screener will select you for punishment secondary anyway.
Aug 11, 2007, 9:40 am
#116
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 34
I have not worked for the TSA for about 5 months. When I did we where never directed to ask any questions of passengers about where they were going or why. What I did see was TSO's trying to be friendly by engaging the passengers in conversations about where they were headed. I also saw on a few occasions TSO's and supervisors attempt to intimidate passengers with questions. This was a very rare occasion. In my 3 years I saw this maybe twice.
I have to add I worked at a small airport in the midwest. It was a very relaxed and friendly enviroment compared to other airports I have traveled thru.
I have to add I worked at a small airport in the midwest. It was a very relaxed and friendly enviroment compared to other airports I have traveled thru.
Aug 11, 2007, 9:57 am
#117
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bansko, Bulgaria
Programs: Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 1,260
Yes it does matter and it is worth getting worked up about. They are not Customs and it is not their place to ask those questions. TSA is constantly overstepping the bounds of their authority. If you want to live with the wool over your eyes Mr. Sheep that is your business but do not be surprised when others are not so accepting.
Aug 11, 2007, 11:21 am
#118
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: SDF
Programs: DL DM (1.1MM), MR TEL, HH DL, Avis P+ National Ex+, blah blah blah
Posts: 1,033
If questioned where I was goin...
"nunya"
would be the answer.
This question, within the domestic US, is the equivalent of "Papers please!"
I'm sick of this stuff in the name of "security".
Usually, however, from the midwest airports I usualy fly to/from, I usually get a more friendly "How are you doing today"
To which I reply
"I was better, but I got over it."
Those that get it, get a chuckle. Those that don't, just look at me with that puzzled dog look.
"nunya"
would be the answer.
This question, within the domestic US, is the equivalent of "Papers please!"
I'm sick of this stuff in the name of "security".
Usually, however, from the midwest airports I usualy fly to/from, I usually get a more friendly "How are you doing today"
To which I reply
"I was better, but I got over it."
Those that get it, get a chuckle. Those that don't, just look at me with that puzzled dog look.
Aug 11, 2007, 11:28 am
#119
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
If questioned where I was goin...
"nunya"
would be the answer.
This question, within the domestic US, is the equivalent of "Papers please!"
I'm sick of this stuff in the name of "security".
Usually, however, from the midwest airports I usualy fly to/from, I usually get a more friendly "How are you doing today"
To which I reply
"I was better, but I got over it."
Those that get it, get a chuckle. Those that don't, just look at me with that puzzled dog look.
"nunya"
would be the answer.
This question, within the domestic US, is the equivalent of "Papers please!"
I'm sick of this stuff in the name of "security".
Usually, however, from the midwest airports I usualy fly to/from, I usually get a more friendly "How are you doing today"
To which I reply
"I was better, but I got over it."
Those that get it, get a chuckle. Those that don't, just look at me with that puzzled dog look.
Aug 11, 2007, 12:52 pm
#120
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Doha, Qatar
Programs: Air Canada Aeroplan, Lufthansa Miles & More, Flying Blue, Hyatt Gold Passport
Posts: 1,894
I just read this article:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...20/DD42073.DTL
It doesn't support your contention that saying, "New York" when you fly to EWR will constitute lying to a federal officer. The FBI was abusive in the Higazy case in that it questioned him without allowing him legal counsel and, of course, the Bush administration has simply ignored the Constitution when it comes to detaining and imprisoning people it doesn't like. However, your contention was both factually and legally inaccurate and completely overstates the stituation (which is bad enough as it is)..
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...20/DD42073.DTL
It doesn't support your contention that saying, "New York" when you fly to EWR will constitute lying to a federal officer. The FBI was abusive in the Higazy case in that it questioned him without allowing him legal counsel and, of course, the Bush administration has simply ignored the Constitution when it comes to detaining and imprisoning people it doesn't like. However, your contention was both factually and legally inaccurate and completely overstates the stituation (which is bad enough as it is)..
Not true -- i have frequently been asked questionj answering which would violate the mandates of NDA restraints. I often tell them such info is under NDA, and such NDA has a clause that permits me to diviulge this info under a court order, so if they want to get a court order, I'd be happy to answer. The worts thing that has happened is that they scowl at me officiously as they stamp me in. In fact, they don't even wish me a pleasant stay.