Have we really lost that much? Really? More people have more freedom today than any other time in our nation's history.

It looks like we may actually see eye to eye on more than I thought. However, there's a couple things you said in a post to essxjay I may take exception with. As long one disagrees in a civil manner, I believe it makes for a good discussion and debate.

You're spot on here. The problem is "Secure Flight" is supposed to be the fix to the broken no fly list and selectee list. However, even if these lists were abolished, I believe the Kippies of the TSA would still push to obtain pax data and run such a program.

I think it's best that the public fights "Secure Flight" through contacting elected representatives, writing editorial letters, and keeping the media involved. While the status quo leaves a lot to be desired, it's a lot better than having the "Secure Flight" program in place.

Secure Flight will affect everyone who travels - the no fly list only affects a small number of people, but that small amount is still too large of a number.

I don't necessarily agree 100% here. Is there a big government conspiracy to steal civil liberties? I don't believe so per se; but there are many policy makers and officials of a certain mindset that have no problem taking away civil liberties and taking us down this slope with the mindset that it'll make us safer. This is very dangerous.

Take a look at Michael Chertof, Kip Hawley, and Alberto Gonzales. The latter really disgusts me as AG of the United States. Gonzales along with recent predecessors have done a lot damage. I honestly believe he has no respect for the US Constitution, due process, and something called the Bill of Rights, the 1st and 4th amendments specifically. States Rights?

Gonzales and company will fight this in court. There is a lot that still needs to come to light with the federal AG's that were fired. In August of 2006 a federal court ruled the domestic spying programs to be unconstitutional - setting aside changes that have supposedly been made - Gonzales is on record saying "We also believe very strongly that the program is lawful," he said in Washington, adding that the program is "reviewed periodically" by lawyers to determine its effectiveness and ensure lawfulness. (CNN)

While this example isn't exactly tied to travel, it is a good example of how the administration stonewalls and believes they are above the courts. This is part of the erosion of civil liberties here in the USA; domestic spying, wiretapping, federal terror targeting systems, and let's not forget GITMO which is even backfiring with the military tribunals.

There is a pattern of reckless behaviour here for things such as due process, the god given rights provided to us by the US Constitution, and the perception that the government doesn't have to follow court rulings.

I could bring in several more examples, but I expect the attorneys for the TSA & DHS to act and behave the same way. I expect Gonzales to fight dirty when many of these things are challenged which have spiraled the US downwards on this slippery slope.

What good is the checks and balances between the Judiciary Branch, The Executive Branch, and the Legislative Branch when the Executive Branch (which includes the TSA/DHS) feels & acts as if it is immune?

In your message to essxjay you talk about TSA attorneys going over procedures being reviewed by staff lawyers. These staff lawyers have an agenda and will even go as far to say the no fly list, selectee list, and even CAPPS II, if it were not shot down, were legal and constitutional.

There are screeners who report travellers carrying 10k + in cash; if travelling international, it is up to the traveller to file the appropriate FINCEN form. If flying domestic, there isn't anything illegal carrying cash.
Others looking for drugs and other items that have nothing to do with aviation security. The focus needs to be on aviation security, not a mission creep or dragnet to catch anything and everything.

What about intra-California flights where the state has legalised MJ for medical purposes? The federal govt doesn't approve, but it is not the job of the TSO to turn the passenger over to a LEO to determine if the MJ is legal or not.

Every once in awhile I have to take controlled class II medications. I once had a TSO who took interest in the class II medications. The TSO opened the bottled, looked at the tablets, and even asked for my BP to compare my name with the name on the bottle. Is this aviation security? I think not.

lol - I'd personally like to know why we're on orange. The answer will probably be the binary/liquid bit, but I don't buy it. As I said previously, I believe it is political and part of it is to justify the huge budget.

Then decline the paycheck.

"Servants" don't force the people they are "serving" to pay them money or ask their bosses to do so for them.

With your boot firmly in place of course. Like I said.


LOL!

Exactly.

Very true. We are his subjects. Better argument or not, he still gets to make us do what he wants at the end. Thus the lectures (not debates, of course).



After all, I too used to believe statist monopoly in some (if not many) places could be productive and moral. Why did I change this strongly held belief? Because people with better arguments showed me why I was wrong.

Sorry, but that is the case with every single government employee -- from your local garbage collector on up.

*I* *Am* *Modbot*.



Actually, I'm just a terrorized grad student on caffeine.

(Did I just say terrorized? At least that's topical .. )

I think there's a gross misunderstanding. Initially, screeners reacted to cash found in excess of $10k. And there was a lot of confusion between when it's required to be reported and when it's not. Either way, like it or not, a federal airport security screener is obligated to report cash in excess of $10k for international travelers to LEOs. Also, if illegal drugs and/or drug paraphernalia is discovered incidental to an airport security search, TSOs are likewise obligated to report it to the appropriate authority: in this case, the checkpoint LEO.

However, there's a huge difference between looking for drugs/cash and discovering these items incidental to a search. And there are quite a number of TSOs who don't fully understand this difference. But that doesn't matter because in the end, the onus is on the FSD to ensure that the search was initiated based on airport security prohibited items. If the search was initiated for any other reason, then the evidence won't stand in court; and woe to the FSD who screws that up.

So, if the screeners see a bundle of bills, do they claim the right to count it out themselves? Or do they call a LEO and say they have a wad 'o cash to evaluate?

How do they know that they are dealing with $9,999 or $10,001?


"However, there's a huge difference between looking for drugs/cash and discovering these items incidental to a search".


How can that be since every air traveler is searched? If the TSA is efficient they will observe all of these things, otherwise they are failing to meet their primary mandate.

Excellent question. I can't account for how they do it at other airports, but at mine, I have the TSOs notify a lead or supervisor any time they encounter any bag that has large amounts of cash inside so that there's a witness present for the screener's protection. First thing I do is find out whether the passenger is domestic or international. If domestic, then I have the passenger remove the cash and hold it while the TSO continues with the search. If international, I simply ask the passenger to claim the amount and handle it accordingly. It's really not a big deal as others in here seem to make it. I am obligated to inform the LEO if it meets the reporting criteria; and the LEOs calmly remind passengers to make sure they properly claim the amount with the airline if $10k or over.

As for your comment about the drug paraphernalia, we're looking for items on the prohibited items list. If there's a stash of marijuana in a bag next to a pocketknife, the only way we'll find it is when we spot the knife on x-ray and come across the stash while looking for the knife. Otherwise, we're not going to spot the stash. Our primary job is NOT to look for drugs. No harm, no foul. This is not a big deal.

I am going to PREFACE this by saying this has NOTHING to do with you personally. Many of us on FT travel extensively and many of us grew up with going to the gates and watching friends and relatives planes leaving from the gate. It was when I was a young child I knew I wanted to fly all over the world.

Those dreams will never be experienced with this new generation. Instead there's a blarring intercom "...the threat level is ORANGE" as if to scare the public, in my opinion George Bush's way of keeping everyone in check by creating a false sense of security.

Your comment of "if it was up to us there would be no liquids whatsoever" for you to say that, then you cannot be a frequent traveler. The millions of dollars confiscated by the TSA - without batting an eye - of people's property from bottles of fragrance, to make-up, water, etc., has done enough damage. Most TSA people are nice, some think they are all that....

Having everything fit into "ONE" ziplock back on a carry on is such a joke, I can't even explain it. This is someone who has to go through your checkpoints more than he disables his home security system.

If it was up to the traveling public, the TSA would be a shell of what it is today - and spend the money looking for real terrorists.

Again, nothing against you personally, but since you brought the subject up...

UG

The government could do all sorts of stupid things and people would still be generally more free today than they have been in the past, fwiw.

Is this "obligation" codified or by practice? And, exactly how does this tie into aircraft security, the raison d'etre for TSA?

The OP continues to log into Flyertalk but, for some reason, chooses not to respond beyond his initial post.

So since this thread is wandering off-topic, I'm going to close it for now. If the OP wishes to have it re-opened so he can respond to some of these posts, I ask that he send me or one of the other TS/S moderators a Private Message and we'll do so.

Thanks.

__________________

Cholula
Travel Safety/Security Forum Moderator