When are you going to get it through you're thick head that we're not costing the airlines $.

You sound easily frustrated. You aren't really a sky marshal. Marshals aren't so easily frustrated. No way our government would make such an error in hiring someone for such a sensitive position.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true.

Sure, the airlines are bleeding because of their own mismanagement, but that doesn't mean that sacks of ballast are costing the airlines nothing. Every seat taken by ballast costs the airlines something, we just disagree on how much.

wow...

I seem to recall, earlier in either this thread or another one, the insulting term "bag of ballast" being discussed. If memory serves, it was basically agreed that as long as there were no FAMs posting here, it was not considered a violation of the TOS because it insulted no Flyer Talker. It was also agreed that once FAMs started posting, it became a TOS violation.

No human being is a "sack of ballast". No Flyer Talk member deserves seeing himself referred to as one. It makes no difference if you are referring to a specific F/Ter or an entire group to which he belongs.

Different Flyer Talk members have different opinions about the FAM program. Some oppose it completely, even in theory. Some support it completely. Some -- and I am in this group -- support the concept but oppose the regulations which its administration has imposed (chiefly in regard to how these regulations make it easy to identify FAMs, thus destroying their value).

No matter how we feel about the program, when discussing it we should in mind both the TOS and the feelings of the people who are in the FAM program.

TOS doesn't mean anything when the person using the phrase sits on the board of the forum.

:confused:

Who are you referencing with that statement?

Because the government has a vested interest in not allowing planes to fly into high revenue buildings anymore, including its own. The government has the right to regulate its airspace just as it does its coastline.

I'll type REAL slow, maybe you will be able to follow:

I have stated NOTHING about COSTING the airlines money. I have stated that the seats are a commodity. Why do you think that the government should have this commodity for free????????????????

If I cannot get a free seat just because it would have otherwise gone empty, neither should the government.

Yes, it does. But, as constituted the FAM program is not going to prevent anything.

Your opinion. The government (the one with the vested interest) has a different one.

As a long-time lurker, I must say this has been a fascinating discussion - on so many levels.

Getting back closer to the original point - if it's a good idea to have armed deterrence on airplanes, and if FFs don't want to give up their (oh, wait - I mean MY!) precious upgrade opportunities, how about this proposal:

Begin Wild Theory

One air marshal can enter the airport like ramp service workers (think: the cabin cleaner crew). She/he boards the plane with the cleaners (or even the caterers), and stays onboard when the cleaners or caterers leave. Yes, she/he wears a ramp service-like uniform.

Almost no passenger (including a bad guy) will ever be able to count all the number of ramp personnel boarding and leaving the airplane, so there's little chance of knowing whether there's a FAM on board in this role.

After this marshal boards the plane, and before the pax get on, she/he changes into cockpit-crew-like uniforms and sits in the cockpit! No, they don't fly the plane - there's a jump seat on almost every plane in service today, which is only very occasionally used by an FAA inspector, and the FAM sits there.

If the in-cockpit air marshal has to use the lav, they follow standard cockpit security procedures to do so, and the pax who might see the FAM (in the flight uniform) will be none the wiser - after all, many pilots (IMHO) seem to keep themselves in fairly good shape, so a trained FAM in the uniform would not arouse suspicion.

When ending the flight, the FAM exits just like the cockpit crew, or they could reverse the cabin-crew charade if they have to turn for another flight.

This would accomplish several things:

- For those who want guns in the cockpits of airplanes, you've got one, but in the hands of a trained person who has no in-flight airplane control responsibilities.

- It would be difficult to "out" this marshal, since it would be nearly impossible to know if or when they got on. The deterrent effect of this should be significant. ("Is there, or isn't there ...")

- This puts a FAM in a strategic place without taking up a precious upgrade seat.

The FAM in the cockpit takes up no F seat, but now is in the role of the last line of defense of the cockpit. Without the proper protocols, the only people coming through that door are bad guys, so lethal force is warranted.

I know there are some issues (e.g., communication between FAMs in an emergency situation) but I think these could be resolved - especially with the advances in wireless communication devices. Getting a FAM who was used to sitting in an F seat to sit in the jumpseat for a long flight might require some persuasion, though.

End Wild Theory

That's it. I'm happy to listen to any and all comments and criticisms, because with enough work I think I can turn this into a screenplay ...

No, really - imagine it as a made-for-TV movie with the hero/ine (the FAM who saves the day), the bad guys (fanatical terrorists), the cannon fodder (the hostile - and probably tipsy - self-important flyer who intrudes on everything while trying to save the day and gets wounded - probably several separate times), the comic relief (an 80-year-old flight attendant who can't remember how to serve food or drinks), the love interest (an idealistic wide-eyed 20-year-old flight attendant), and - of course - the kid with the rare blood type that has to get to the hospital to give a transfusion to save a dying twin, who - even as this is happening - is saying a tearful "good-bye" to the family dog.

C'mon, share the love - tell me what you really think ...

LOVE IT baby!!! ROTFLMAO!!!

And I like the idea about the jump seat. Of course this leaves the pax pretty much to fend for themselves but they are convinced they, with no training or experience in the area, will do just fine. Not so sure, but not my worry. I bet the FAMs would like the idea.

Oh, please like you don't know :rolleyes:

To my recollection Spiff was the creator of this wonderful phrase. He started using this instead of Nazi and other names.

I am being serious, not sure who you are talking about

As far as I am concerned, no one here is above the TOS.

nevermind...