Travelers Defying TSA
Oct 30, 2018, 5:00 pm
#32
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Houston
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Carbines aren't rifles because they don't use rifle rounds. They use pistol rounds. Some are close in size to assault rifles, but aren't really used as such. Think of them as really long barrelled pistols with a shoulder stock.
Why do you think the ability to travel is a privilege and not a right? Airlines are common carriers who cannot discriminate against customers. You don't need permission to book a flight, you don't need permission to go to the airport. You don't actually need any physical identification to get through security.
Why do you think the ability to travel is a privilege and not a right? Airlines are common carriers who cannot discriminate against customers. You don't need permission to book a flight, you don't need permission to go to the airport. You don't actually need any physical identification to get through security.
And airlines discriminate against customers all the time... so many examples of people being kicked off for smelling bad, saying something unusual, etc..
Oct 31, 2018, 7:37 am
#33
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,116
i cannot agree with the last statement. Are you able to regularly fly, or even go through security, without physical identification? There are always exceptions but TSA doesn’t have to let you through.
And airlines discriminate against customers all the time... so many examples of people being kicked off for smelling bad, saying something unusual, etc..
Government is limited from restricting a persons right to freely navigate the roadways/airways, in other words the person is protected by the Constitution which limits what government can do.
A business offering transport to the general public can't discriminate on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, and so forth but can limit a persons access to their transportation system if the person violates the Contract of Carriage which covers reasons a person may be denied accommodation.
Oct 31, 2018, 11:20 am
#34
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dulles, VA
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Posts: 2,757
i cannot agree with the last statement. Are you able to regularly fly, or even go through security, without physical identification? There are always exceptions but TSA doesn’t have to let you through.
And airlines discriminate against customers all the time... so many examples of people being kicked off for smelling bad, saying something unusual, etc..
Oct 31, 2018, 1:38 pm
#35
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: BOS and vicinity
Programs: Former UA 1P
Posts: 3,725
Indeed, and it's interesting that the 88% screening failure rate by TSA as reported by the surveyed passengers is rate is remarkably similar to the screening failure rate reported by TSA's own "red teams."
Oct 31, 2018, 2:17 pm
#36
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dulles, VA
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Oct 31, 2018, 2:20 pm
#37
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
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In defense of TSA I believe the last known Red Team test results had them all the way down to a 75% miss rate.
For some reason TSA doesn't want the public to know how effective they are and are not releasing any additional test results.
For some reason TSA doesn't want the public to know how effective they are and are not releasing any additional test results.
Oct 31, 2018, 11:18 pm
#38
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Houston
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TSA must let you through if they can establish your identity and that you are not carrying any prohibited items through security. You do not need photo ID or ID of any kind, as they can verify your identity through database searches. You will be patted down, but they must let you pass. They can delay you, but they must let you pass. If they feel you are there illegally, they can only call the police. They are not a law enforcement agency. They have no power to detain you or hold you beyond the time it takes to perform their limited administrative search of you and items you carry into the screening area.
Oct 31, 2018, 11:34 pm
#39
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dulles, VA
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Nov 1, 2018, 10:00 am
#40
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Nov 1, 2018, 12:30 pm
#41
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dulles, VA
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1) If you are a threat to security, then they must call the police to make an arrest. If it isn't an arrest offense, then it can't keep you from going through security. If they flag something in your bag and you refuse to part with it by checking the bag, throwing the item away or returning it to your car/home and then traveling, then unfortunately that is on you.
2) Now you're moving the goal posts. As clearly stated, you do have to have your identity verified, either with ID or via database search. It's highly unlikely that a traveler with not show up in database searches. If you've ever gone to school, paid a bill, had a bank account or in general live in the 21st century, you're in a database.
3) No. They cannot arbitrarily say no. If they were to try that, simply call the police.
You started by saying that flying is a privilege and not a right. You've clearly been corrected as to that belief.
2) Now you're moving the goal posts. As clearly stated, you do have to have your identity verified, either with ID or via database search. It's highly unlikely that a traveler with not show up in database searches. If you've ever gone to school, paid a bill, had a bank account or in general live in the 21st century, you're in a database.
3) No. They cannot arbitrarily say no. If they were to try that, simply call the police.
You started by saying that flying is a privilege and not a right. You've clearly been corrected as to that belief.
Nov 1, 2018, 1:06 pm
#42
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Posts: 28,116
I think this can be looked at in a different manner. Flying as a passenger isn't any big deal. Nor is riding as a passenger in a bus, taxi, or private car. Government has no right to keep a person from doing those things unless you have committed some type of crime. I would go so far as to say that No Fly Lists for citizens violate a persons civil rights unless the person is under court supervision.
So why do people think being a passenger in a commercial airplane is any different? Travel is travel, by foot or conveyance. If passage is offered and paid for then why would government have any right to interfere unless there was a legal action in play? Concerning commercial air, governments only concern should be insuring that WEI is not introduced to the aircraft. Sadly, we have let TSA gain a belief that they can do more.
So why do people think being a passenger in a commercial airplane is any different? Travel is travel, by foot or conveyance. If passage is offered and paid for then why would government have any right to interfere unless there was a legal action in play? Concerning commercial air, governments only concern should be insuring that WEI is not introduced to the aircraft. Sadly, we have let TSA gain a belief that they can do more.
Last edited by Boggie Dog; Nov 1, 2018 at 7:14 pm
Nov 1, 2018, 4:49 pm
#43
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,332
1) If you are a threat to security, then they must call the police to make an arrest. If it isn't an arrest offense, then it can't keep you from going through security. If they flag something in your bag and you refuse to part with it by checking the bag, throwing the item away or returning it to your car/home and then traveling, then unfortunately that is on you.
2) Now you're moving the goal posts. As clearly stated, you do have to have your identity verified, either with ID or via database search. It's highly unlikely that a traveler with not show up in database searches. If you've ever gone to school, paid a bill, had a bank account or in general live in the 21st century, you're in a database.
3) No. They cannot arbitrarily say no. If they were to try that, simply call the police.
You started by saying that flying is a privilege and not a right. You've clearly been corrected as to that belief.
2) Now you're moving the goal posts. As clearly stated, you do have to have your identity verified, either with ID or via database search. It's highly unlikely that a traveler with not show up in database searches. If you've ever gone to school, paid a bill, had a bank account or in general live in the 21st century, you're in a database.
3) No. They cannot arbitrarily say no. If they were to try that, simply call the police.
You started by saying that flying is a privilege and not a right. You've clearly been corrected as to that belief.
1) What is RIGHT isn't always what's LEGAL
2) What is LEGAL isn't always what HAPPENS
2) What HAPPENS isn't always what others CLAIM happened
In practical terms, if a TSO doesn't want you to fly, you won't fly. Whether by lying, exaggerating, by misconstruing the facts, or in rare cases where they have legitimate grounds, the TSO will always find some legal basis for preventing you from flying that their supervisory chain and the local LEOs will accept, and you won't fly. There are avenues of redress available after the fact if you are illegally or unfairly prevented from flying, and some of them actually work (occasionally), but in the moment, right then and there - if a TSO decides you don't fly, then you don't fly.
And frankly, even in those airports where the local LEOs think very poorly of TSA and will not assist them in any way with their shenanigans, I still have serious doubts that there is anything that the local cops can do if the TSA personnel decide you're not flying. Local LEOs have no legal authority to force the TSA to allow you through the c/p and onto a plane; the most they can do is refuse to cooperate if TSA insists that you be unfairly or illegally arrested or escorted off airport property.
Last edited by WillCAD; Nov 1, 2018 at 4:59 pm Reason: Preventing is spelled with a V, not a C...
Nov 1, 2018, 10:43 pm
#44
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Frensham, Lincolnshire
Programs: RFC
Posts: 5,094
Their methodology and academic standards seem as high as any TSA study I've ever had to wade through.
Nov 2, 2018, 12:41 am
#45
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
1) If you are a threat to security, then they must call the police to make an arrest. If it isn't an arrest offense, then it can't keep you from going through security. If they flag something in your bag and you refuse to part with it by checking the bag, throwing the item away or returning it to your car/home and then traveling, then unfortunately that is on you.
2) Now you're moving the goal posts. As clearly stated, you do have to have your identity verified, either with ID or via database search. It's highly unlikely that a traveler with not show up in database searches. If you've ever gone to school, paid a bill, had a bank account or in general live in the 21st century, you're in a database.
In practical terms, if a TSO doesn't want you to fly, you won't fly. Whether by lying, exaggerating, by misconstruing the facts, or in rare cases where they have legitimate grounds, the TSO will always find some legal basis for preventing you from flying that their supervisory chain and the local LEOs will accept, and you won't fly. There are avenues of redress available after the fact if you are illegally or unfairly prevented from flying, and some of them actually work (occasionally), but in the moment, right then and there - if a TSO decides you don't fly, then you don't fly.