declining pat down
Jun 17, 2012 | 1:12 pm
#46
Join Date: Oct 2011
Programs: Ham Sandwich Medallion
Posts: 889
Jun 17, 2012 | 1:12 pm
#47
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: DFW
Programs: AA EXP, MR Gold, HH Gold
Posts: 926
As for retaliation, as I have said before (and I believe you have not read), when you hear hoof-beats think horses, not zebras. Retaliatory screenings honestly do happen, but nowhere near as often as most in this venue would claim. If there was an anomaly then there was an anomaly, and it needed to be cleared, hence the pat-down.
By the way, you know rape isn't about sex, right? It's about power and humiliation, and I think being threatened with arrest unless you consent to your genitals being touched is getting a little too close.
Jun 17, 2012 | 1:16 pm
#48
Join Date: Jul 2006
Programs: United
Posts: 2,710
As for consenting, you consent to such each and every time you have intimate relations with another person. <snip>
Screening is not sexual assault, and you consent to it when you present yourself for screening. No one has forced you to undergo screening, no arm twisting, no gun to your head. Its your choice. There are signs all over the airport and announcements over the airport PA system all the time advising you of the possibility of screening, which gives you advanced notice and the opportunity to turn around and leave the property prior to any such screening. That is how TSA meets its obligation to due diligence under the administrative search doctrine.
Screening is not sexual assault, and you consent to it when you present yourself for screening. No one has forced you to undergo screening, no arm twisting, no gun to your head. Its your choice. There are signs all over the airport and announcements over the airport PA system all the time advising you of the possibility of screening, which gives you advanced notice and the opportunity to turn around and leave the property prior to any such screening. That is how TSA meets its obligation to due diligence under the administrative search doctrine.
Jun 17, 2012 | 1:45 pm
#49
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California. USA
Posts: 1,404
Once the LEOs step in its their ball game. TSA cannot do much more than they already have with the exception of refusing you access to the sterile area. That means no flight.
TSA must complete screening on your carry-on property, no way to avoid that, but your person is a different matter. You can withdraw permission for the screening of your person but there will be consequences. A LEO call at the very least. There are other possibilities, some of which have already been mentioned.
Typically when a passenger refuses screening they are escorted back to the public side by a TSO or law enforcement if called. And honestly, we dont really care what class of flyer you are. Plat, gold, whatever, none of our business and does not change anything we do.
LEOs are LEOs, not TSA. They dont know our procedures any more than we know theirs. If a LEO had been called then a supervisor was already involved, and they are the experts on TSA procedure, not the LEO.
One pass through the AIT is all that they are supposed to allow. Sorry, procedures. As for consenting, you consent to such each and every time you have intimate relations with another person. And there are places in this country where you CAN legally consent to being murdered. Physician assisted suicide.
Screening is not sexual assault, and you consent to it when you present yourself for screening. No one has forced you to undergo screening, no arm twisting, no gun to your head. Its your choice. There are signs all over the airport and announcements over the airport PA system all the time advising you of the possibility of screening, which gives you advanced notice and the opportunity to turn around and leave the property prior to any such screening. That is how TSA meets its obligation to due diligence under the administrative search doctrine.
TSA must complete screening on your carry-on property, no way to avoid that, but your person is a different matter. You can withdraw permission for the screening of your person but there will be consequences. A LEO call at the very least. There are other possibilities, some of which have already been mentioned.
Typically when a passenger refuses screening they are escorted back to the public side by a TSO or law enforcement if called. And honestly, we dont really care what class of flyer you are. Plat, gold, whatever, none of our business and does not change anything we do.
LEOs are LEOs, not TSA. They dont know our procedures any more than we know theirs. If a LEO had been called then a supervisor was already involved, and they are the experts on TSA procedure, not the LEO.
One pass through the AIT is all that they are supposed to allow. Sorry, procedures. As for consenting, you consent to such each and every time you have intimate relations with another person. And there are places in this country where you CAN legally consent to being murdered. Physician assisted suicide.
Screening is not sexual assault, and you consent to it when you present yourself for screening. No one has forced you to undergo screening, no arm twisting, no gun to your head. Its your choice. There are signs all over the airport and announcements over the airport PA system all the time advising you of the possibility of screening, which gives you advanced notice and the opportunity to turn around and leave the property prior to any such screening. That is how TSA meets its obligation to due diligence under the administrative search doctrine.
I will never consent to have my breasts or genitals groped.
That is way out of line. And to me it would be sexual assult.
And nobody knows if the screener is going overboard enjoying the "touch".
So dont tellme it would not be "sexual assult" from the screeners part.
Jun 17, 2012 | 1:53 pm
#50
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California. USA
Posts: 1,404
Originally Posted by TSORon
As for consenting, you consent to such each and every time you have intimate relations with another person
When I consent to have a intimate relations with another person is becuase I want to.
Plus I am allowed to return the "touch'.
A"consent" that I dont give to fly is one way street.So it is not the same.
As for consenting, you consent to such each and every time you have intimate relations with another person
When I consent to have a intimate relations with another person is becuase I want to.
Plus I am allowed to return the "touch'.
A"consent" that I dont give to fly is one way street.So it is not the same.
Jun 17, 2012 | 2:10 pm
#52
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,425
It's also consistent with a very modest, religious, conservative woman who had never been touched in those places before getting married. Or anyone who believes we shouldn't let TSA touch children on their genitals while telling them it's "bad touch". Or pretty much anyone else who doesn't see terrorists under every rock.
I will do that, although I'm not sure that's correct. Everything I've read says, "search" which seems to imply of baggage and person. The meth was in his pocket, after all.
Jun 17, 2012 | 2:40 pm
#53
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,728
They touched you between your legs when the anomaly was in your armpit because you objected, and they want to try to teach you not to question their "authoritah."
Jun 17, 2012 | 4:08 pm
#55
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The Sunshine State
Programs: Deltaworst Peon Level, TSA "Layer 21 Club", NW WP RIP
Posts: 11,372
From an alleged 2009 copy of the TSA Screening SOP available on the interweb. No SSI redacted information in this section. Bolding Mine
"2.11. INDIVIDUALS WHO REFUSE SCREENING OF THEIR PERSON
The screening process of an individual begins when he or she walks through a WTMD (or an ETP if it is placed ahead of the WTMD at ETP-equipped checkpoints), or a TSO grants an individuals request for specialized screening. Once screening has begun, an individual may not withdraw from the screening process.
A. If an individual refuses screening of his or her person before screening has begun, the TSO must deny the individual entry into the sterile area.
B. If an individual refuses to complete screening after screening has begun, the TSO must notify the STSO. The STSO must advise the individual that the screening process must be completed. The STSO must then offer the individual a final opportunity to complete the screening process. If the individual continues to refuse screening, the STSO must:
1) Notify an LEO and request that the LEO assist in completing screening of the individual
2) Ensure that screening of the individuals accessible property is completed
3) Inform TSA management if the LEO permits the individual to return to the public area without completing screening
C. If the individual, who has refused to complete screening, returns to the public area prior to clearance or the arrival of an LEO:
1) Screening personnel must attempt to keep the individual under constant observation until an LEO arrives.
2) Screening personnel must not physically detain or hinder the movement of the individual.
D. If an unscreened individual proceeds into the sterile area, all screening at that screening checkpoint must be stopped and no other individuals are permitted to enter the sterile area until directed to resume screening operations by TSA management."
So we learn in Section B1 that the TSO requests the LEO to force the completion of the screening, but the LEO has the option to refuse and simply point the person back to the public area, as noted in B3.
Section C is very clear about walk offs and the TSO's power to detain: None. ^
Of course there is always the catch all "interfering with the screening process" to charge you with.
Jun 17, 2012 | 5:02 pm
#56
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: DFW
Programs: AA EXP, MR Gold, HH Gold
Posts: 926
So we learn in Section B1 that the TSO requests the LEO to force the completion of the screening, but the LEO has the option to refuse and simply point the person back to the public area, as noted in B3.
Section C is very clear about walk offs and the TSO's power to detain: None. :
Section C is very clear about walk offs and the TSO's power to detain: None. :
Now, to research and find out how to not have anomalies and get through un-molested next weekend...
Jun 17, 2012 | 5:29 pm
#57
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 729
Undergoing TSA screening is like paying a ransom to a kidnapper. If I pay the ransom, my ability to fly is returned to me. If I do not pay the ransom, my only recourse is to appeal to the entity that is tasked with protecting me and my rights. That entity, unfortunately, is also the kidnapper.
Jun 17, 2012 | 5:33 pm
#58
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: DFW
Programs: AA EXP, MR Gold, HH Gold
Posts: 926
Jun 17, 2012 | 5:35 pm
#59
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 729
"Such a rule would afford terrorists multiple opportunities to attempt to penetrate airport security by electing not to fly on the cusp of detection until a vulnerable portal is found."
Great. More "guilty until proven innocent" from our government.