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Interrogated and Detained at IAH for Photographing

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Old Sep 11, 2010 | 1:57 pm
  #466  
 
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Originally Posted by PhoenixRev
Why have you put the onus upon the average law-abiding citizen to clear up the situation? If I am doing something completely legal - such as taking photos inside an airport - it should not be my burden to ease the mind of the police. They are free to ask me questions and I am free to ignore them.

If they truly believe they have probable cause to arrest me, then they should arrest me. Otherwise, if they ask me why I am taking photos inside the airport and I say nothing, they need to either continue their observation of me (without interfering with what I am doing legally) or they need to return to their post and start looking for the bad guys and gals.

You said you are more than happy to clear up any suspicion. But who defined that suspicion and why? We have nothing to suggest that taking photos of a TSO or the security area in the airport is the harbinger of terrorism. Nothing at all. But, we have cops detaining people for doing something perfectly legal and, in many cases, telling people they need to delete the photos they have taken as if destroying possible evidence is legal.

You may think it convenient to simply answer the cops questions and move along. But where does that stop? If he asks for ID will you give it to him? If he asks for your Social Security number or National Health Care ID number, will you give it to him? If he asks what you do for a living and how much money you make, will you tell him? If he asks you how many children you have and which schools they attend, will you tell him?



I wouldn't make that assumption at all. If the cops knew what laws existed on their own patch, the courts would have far fewer cases. How many cops have been slapped down by the courts for exceeding their authority? How many times have we heard on this forum cops saying that taking photos inside an airport is illegal (it's not)?
We have meandered here and meandered there and it's all sort of getting away from the original issue. So, I 'll stick to the airport example that opened this or before long we'll be debating far away.

I suggested that the OP did not behave in a responsible way as to me he set out to precipitate and provoke a particular reaction, that's my opinion. If yours is different OK. Having 'the right to do it?' Maybe. If you have 'the right to do it', is it automatically the case it must always 'be right to do it?' Suggest not.

Delete photographs. Well that's not on, if they are content no actual criminality is afoot. That's sort of like 'criminal damage'.

Not required to carry ID here. Would I produce it if I had it? If stopped in a vehicle I would provide driving licence (otherwise they would issue me a form to produce it later). They don't usually need anything else in that category as it's photographic and checkable.

As for the other stuff, I would not expect to be asked for that and don't carry it anyway. If I am stopped in relation to being suspected of something then I have to give a name and address (but that's here). They can check that too, fairly easily.

In short, co-operate? yes, but if I think I've done my bit to alleviate their suspicion and they are still questioning me to no end, I might be a little contentious about it, as you would. That's fishing, agreed.

Don't mistake me for the total submissive type but I'm just not at the other end of the spectrum either

Anyway, I'm having a 'Time out'. My original opinion of the OP and his precipitation of the encounter stands. I've given responses stating I don't condone TSA judgement and that being detained by HPD for 90mins seems a long time and I don't agree with the bag being taken. The caveat to it is that none of us were there and only one POV of events is reported. That's it.

'This call sign out!'

Last edited by Custardthecat; Sep 12, 2010 at 1:01 am Reason: punctuation
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Old Sep 11, 2010 | 2:09 pm
  #467  
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Originally Posted by Custardthecat
So in this case you do not support my entitlement to silence (in not co-operating with an answer) and draw your own inference from it! Interesting experiment!

Bit of a U turn, is it not!
There you go making up things, again and again -- the above conclusions in both of your above paragraphs rest upon imagination and imagination alone.
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 12:29 am
  #468  
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Originally Posted by Custardthecat
I think I am going to refer you back to this entire series of posts in this thread and ask you to read them in conjunction. Try looking at for example some of Firebug4 in the early thread and weigh up both sides of the coin. I think your question sits in isolation to all of the discussion, so, I think I'll..........'take the 5th'.....lol
In other words you get it but you don't think it should apply to the OP?

Originally Posted by bdschobel
Most never even draw their guns.
That is absurd; do you have any basis in fact for this statement?

Originally Posted by tom911
Hard for me to agree with either of those statements. I worked in a very violent city (had 32 murders one year when I was there, though now they average 12-16 a year), and officers drew their guns every night, particularly when stopping cars with armed suspects inside after gunfire reports or crimes involving weapons, let alone actual shootings and stabbings.
Wow-- 32.

I live in Chicago.
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 1:17 am
  #469  
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Originally Posted by Ari
I live in Chicago.
Maybe we should both move to where bdschobel lives. Sounds pretty quiet there.
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 2:57 am
  #470  
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Originally Posted by tom911
Sounds pretty quiet there.
It sounds like most of the country.
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 8:18 am
  #471  
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Originally Posted by tom911
Maybe we should both move to where bdschobel lives. Sounds pretty quiet there.
It is. Princeton, NJ.

Bruce
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 8:34 am
  #472  
 
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Originally Posted by essxjay
The verbatim is the same, but perhaps not the chain of discovery and standards of evidence.

Of course it does.

Throughout this discussion there appears on your part to be: 1) a conflation of unparticularized suspicion or hunch with the (U.S.) legal standard of probable cause; 2) ignorance of the legal distinction between reasonable suspicion and probable cause; and 3) confusion about or indifference to whether the threshold of proof for either standard of warrant or arrest was met in the OP's case.

The standard of reasonable suspicion is based on specific and articulable facts taken together with rational inferences from those facts.

The stricter standard of probable cause is a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true.

If we're to have a fruitful discussion of the OP's case we all should be honest about whether we're posting mere opinion of the incident or commentary informed by the law.

. . . . .

The $64,000 question remains: What specific, articulable facts did the Houston police officers have to suspect the OP of illegal behavior? (Remember to keep in mind that the TSOs' hunches and unparticularized beliefs about c/p photography are all LEO were presented with.)
Just wanted to add one thing to a great response: An individual's silence in response to police questioning can never be used as part of the equation to form probable cause.
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 9:05 am
  #473  
 
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Originally Posted by wildcatlh
Just wanted to add one thing to a great response: An individual's silence in response to police questioning can never be used as part of the equation to form probable cause.
But for some reason the SCOTUS has held that in order to exercise your right to remain silent you must speak.
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 1:39 pm
  #474  
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And the Montgomery County, Maryland police think you're suspicious if you want to buy panoramic camera equipment:

Link

'Tis all part of Operation Sentry...

Link

Too bad we can't elect the police chief out of office.
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 3:01 pm
  #475  
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Originally Posted by tom911
Maybe we should both move to where bdschobel lives. Sounds pretty quiet there.
Eh. I'd rather have hundreds of murders 5 miles from my house than a bunch of bored cops running DUI roadblocks and salivating over any possible moving violation.
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 3:10 pm
  #476  
 
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Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer
And the Montgomery County, Maryland police think you're suspicious if you want to buy panoramic camera equipment:

Link
From that website:

What should I consider suspicious?

* Photos which contain various landmarks or sensitive infrastructure locations, which don't appear to have any aesthetic appeal which makes the photo attractive (i.e. the support cables of a bridge, the fence surrounding the electrical power plant, etc).

*Camera purchases of expensive photography equipment with panoramic shooting capability.

*Photos of film that repeatedly shows landmarks and sensitive infrastructure that is filmed from a variety of angles which serve to produce panoramic coverage of the sites.
So, if you are a tourist, an architect or a hobby photographer, you are automatically suspicious.

And now for the solution from that page:

Require valid ID from all new customers.
Any business that would require an ID from me to purchase a legal product that has no age restrictions (like tobacco or alcohol or etc.) is a business that will never, ever see my money.

Good grief.
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 3:43 pm
  #477  
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Originally Posted by PhoenixRev
Any business that would require an ID from me to purchase a legal product that has no age restrictions (like tobacco or alcohol or etc.) is a business that will never, ever see my money.

Good grief.
Papier, bitte!
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 3:53 pm
  #478  
 
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Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer
And the Montgomery County, Maryland police think you're suspicious if you want to buy panoramic camera equipment:

Link

'Tis all part of Operation Sentry...

Link

Too bad we can't elect the police chief out of office.
Thanks! I just sent that link to a couple of photographer/firefighter friends of mine, who are also voting residents of MoCo. They both agreed that they are going to write to the Council (as useless as that will be) and the Penn Camera store that they purchase from to open dialog about this issue.

I just love the demand for requiring ID of all customers in the various aspects of that "operation".
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Old Sep 12, 2010 | 4:04 pm
  #479  
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Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer
And the Montgomery County, Maryland police think you're suspicious if you want to buy panoramic camera equipment:

Link

'Tis all part of Operation Sentry...

Link

Too bad we can't elect the police chief out of office.
Words fail me.
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Old Sep 13, 2010 | 6:00 am
  #480  
 
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