knowledgeispower

Another data point:

As you know both my wife and I were denied a Slate card back in June for the same "too many cards opened recently". Also at this time I was told I had maxed out credit with chase (had 78k in total credit lines)

So today I called in and lowered my lines by a total of 18k in hoping for an auto approval. I applied for the Chase Hyatt and was given a pending decision notice with a reference number. This is unlike my Slate card where it was pending but when I called it was instant denial.

So I called in, the rep was extremely nice and she started asking me some basic income questions and why I have opened many recent cards with Chase (6 in the last 24 months she said). I explained they are travel cards and I am recently traveling more for business and have loyalty to multiple brands and like to have those branded cards. She said she needs a moment to look over my report and get back to me.

A few minutes later she gets back and her tone changes immediately. It went from very soft and nice to almost robotic...She basically explained that she can't open the card because of the recent cards opened are too many. I explained to her I have a long and positive history with Chase and multiple cards that are much older (at least 5 years with the Freedom, 5 years with Amazon Visa, and 3 year Mortgage...granted not THAT old but still not recent either...also have a United card that I've paid the AF for and kept and use a lot of my spend on). She did acknowledge my history but said unfortunately because of the new accounts they can't properly assess my debt usage and need those accounts to mature before they can extend me more credit.

So ultimately she would not approve my application. It was interesting because then her tone went back to being nice and soft once I succumbed to that fact almost as if it wasn't in her power. It is weird because it went much differently than it did with the Chase Slate application where there was no room for discussion.

I'm tempted to call back and ask for a Supervisor to complain about this treatment by Chase (not by the rep but by their "decision") but don't know if it will get me anywhere...

knowledgeispower

Just had a 21 minute call with the recon line in regards to my above post (about the Chase Hyatt denial).

He was VERY frank with me. We had a long discussion:

1. He specifically mentioned I appear to be "reward seeking". He said opening 9 cards in 24 months is concerning even if I have been a responsible borrower.

2. He mentioned I don't use much of my lines. For example Amazon I had $25k line but only used up to $600 of that. With United I have a $25k line and only used up to $5k. I explained that of course I am not going to be irresponsible and max out my credit and that it would hurt my credit utilization. He said he agrees but still it is risky for the bank and not profitable to give me a large line I don't use. I told him I am willing to move lines to not increase the bank's risk and he said again he can't do that because even though they won't increase their risk it looks like I am "reward seeking".

3. He specifically mentioned other cards I have with other banks more than 2 years ago that I only used when I opened and never used again, again blaming me for reward seeking and not using the card again. This upset me because that card specifically had no rewards but I held my temper (it was the Barclaycard Ring).

4. He said that at this time he ultimately cannot provide me with a new product regardless of credit lines because of the reward seeking behavior and in his opinion not enough usage of the accounts.

5. I told him frankly I will vote with my money and cannot believe they would rather extend credit to someone with a poor payment history who might default on a card but doesn't open many cards. I told him why would you offer so many branded products if you don't expect us to want them? I ultimately told him I will move my spending to another bank and he basically said it is unfortunate but he can't do anything. He said he is 100% sure a senior analyst or even manager would agree with him but he is happy to transfer me. I was so upset with Chase at this point that I honestly didn't care and I will ultimately move my spending to other banks like Amex.

Looks like the game is over guys. If you are in it for churning Chase won't be your friend and they are cracking down. Never had such a frank discussion with a rep in my life but very disappointed because I don't churn very much and most of my cards I DO use beyond the initial bonus and I've only closed 2 Chase cards in the past!

Also for the record I don't personally consider most of my Chase cards as "recent". Amazon Visa opened in 2011 with lots of usage, Chase Freedom opened in 2010 with lots of usage, Chase United opened in 2013 with heavy usage ($1-$5k every month), Chase Sapphire Preferred opened 2013 closed early 2014, Chase Ink Bold opened 2013 closed early 2014, Chase Ink Plus opened late 2014 (with some usage every month), Chase IHG opened May 2015.

Sedentary

How could he know this to be the case?
As I understand things, credit reports show a historical high balance (which is how he could know you "don't use much of my lines"), but only show the last month's usage (specifically the last months payment(s)).

So, I'm curious how he determined that just because you didn't use a specific card last month you haven't used it since opening.

Overall awesome post, though! ^

knowledgeispower

That's a very good point. I think he may have assumed that since it had a $13k line and the highest reported balance was like $100 he made an assumption (not good business strategy imo). Also just came to my mind that it is very possible someone uses a card a lot and pays it off before statement posts and if it is with a different bank they would have no idea how much usage that card has seen...this may discourage some people from doing that if this is how they are going to treat applications in the future!

I think they are making a lot of assumptions based on what it "appears" to be churning and that is not a good business strategy. While never a loyal customer I have always preferred Chase because of their customer service but I don't think I will be putting much of my spend on their cards any more. Frankly they probably won't lose much off me leaving to another bank but there are many more banks with increasingly attractive offers. I get offended easily and since I haven't opened and closed too many cards with Chase I was very offended that they treated me like a habitual churner. I've never re-opened the same card once and I've only closed 2 cards with Chase in my history with them. Amex and Citi here I come...

sethb

Because I pay bills online when it's convenient for me (and I'm not earning interest on my money) it's common for me to charge large amounts and pay them off before the bill is written. I suspect that might show as "no usage" on a credit report.

RNE

How odd. The intelligentsia said this only affects UR cards. Hmmm. Anyway, sorry for your loss.

To anyone who wants to avoid looking like a "reward chaser" here is my longstanding—oft ignored—advice.

• Put spend on all your Chase cards every month—especially cards from which you earned a sign-up bonus.
• Keep some (at least 1 or 2) Chase cards for many (5+) years.
• Don't close any Chase card in the first two years.
• Pay the second-year annual fee on all your annual-fee cards—particularly those on which you didn't pay a first-year fee.
• Put non-category spend on all your category-type Chase cards. Ex. Freedom.
• Don't assume you may churn your Chase card after 24 months. Chase may not approve your application. Then you're left without the card but with a hard-pull.
• Understand that you're in a business relationship with Chase and that it will make business decisions about that relationship.

bgriff

All very interesting ... perhaps Chase is testing several different approaches to limiting churning and related behavior.

Your point #3 is most concerning though. First, I am not sure how they even know what your activity with other banks has been -- they can see your current balance and historical peak balance, but I wasn't aware they would be able to see any sort of historical balance trends?

And, it seems like plenty of wholly legitimate usage could create the pattern they were faulting you for -- I have several cards which I have had for many years and which I used early on, but which I haven't used for a long time but have kept open for the credit score benefits; all of this had nothing to do with rewards.

Likewise, maybe someone used to have a bunch of inferior rewards cards and has stopped using them in order to get better rewards cards. Chase seems only to want rewards virgins who were born into this world in front of a CSP offer and never shopped around to consider other options. Which, I can somewhat understand--customers who don't know all their options are usually more profitable customers. But as I said in an earlier post, it's getting harder and harder to imagine there are a lot of such customers out there.

It's possible the rep was just making up any excuse he could to get you off the phone, but if there is any substance to #3, a lot more people are going to get annoyed -- and RNE's continual advice to supplicate Mother Chase isn't going to help, either.

(But, since #2 doesn't entirely make a lot of sense either, it is possible you just got an overly ambitious / talkative rep who took it upon himself to develop an elaborate multi-part story for your rejection.)

RNE

Yeah, a 21-minute "excuse."

beltway

It wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

I think two mistakes here doomed you:

1. You had far too much excess credit. Unless you have the income and the regular monthly expenses to justify it, there is no earthly reason to keep a 60K total CL with two cards at 25K each. IMO you'd have been better off knocking those cards down to 5K & 10K, respectively. (The extra 5K on the second one would still leave you room to move some if necessary.)
2. You called. Chase seems to be the new Barclays: phone CSRs are looking for an excuse to ding you.

In short, IMO this denial has nothing to do with the 5/24 policy & proves less than nothing about the policy on co-branded cards. Occam's Razor says the obvious explanation is too much excess CL to start with.

Now, if we start to see repeated anecdotes about people with carefully, er, manscaped CLs & high FICOs being denied co-branded cards, it will be time to reconsider. For now, though, this isn't even a single data point in support of the "co-brands are doomed too now" claim, let alone a persuasive trendline.

bgriff

It doesn't sound like the rep was the one who was forcing the conversation to continue going.

knowledgeispower

I don't think having excess credit lines should be the fault of the borrower. I never asked for 25k credit lines. These were granted to me based on my income. Obviously it would have been wise to keep them low, but these credit limits allow me to keep my credit utilization ratio at 1-3% regardless of my spend. If they felt the credit limits weren't justified they would have not approved them for me nor extended them to me in the first place!

Interestingly, when he mentioned my credit lines he actually added up the credit extended to me by the 9 cards I opened in the past 24 months (keep in mind only 3 of these were with Chase, the others were from different banks). I've never been told you can have too much extended credit combine - always the opposite - that the more the better for utilization and it can show you responsibly manage those lines. In fact when I began my relationship with Barclay 2 years ago I applied for two of their cards back to back. The 2nd was denied but when I called the recon line he says even though I don't have a history with Barclay he will go ahead and approve me because he can see I have several 25k lines I've managed well. If anything this is a good thing and should not hurt you unless you max out the lines! I think its ridiculous he cited only using 5k of the 25k line as a BAD thing and not utilizing it enough! They clearly want people to carry lots of balances and generate them lots of interest. I get that, but wow he was very frank about it!

Again, I don't think that as a borrower I should have to call in and request lower limits. That's absurd to think a normal consumer would need to do that as the bank should not extend so much credit in the first place. I think Chase has been a very liberal bank in the past as we all know and is starting to tighten up how much credit they extend because of all the recent financial regulations. I do however feel there is more discretion for approval with the co-branded cards as compared to the UR cards as I didn't even have room to discuss my application with the Slate card. And I only called in because they gave me a reference number and specifically said "we need more information from you". Had I got the pending decision message I probably would not have called in the first place.

I do agree for what we do it is probably wise to keep credit limits low, but it still shouldn't be something I am penalized for.

Lumpylump76

You are not a regular borrower. You are trying to game the system. Part of the gaming is understand and learn what may cause a bank to deny you the game. In this case, there has been plenty of mention to lower your chase CLs first, then scoring an auto approval. If a human looks at your file, then anything goes.

knowledgeispower

If you read my first post I lowered my credit limits by 18k before applying but it didn't help.

I don't necessarily think I'm gaming the system. If I were to open cards for the rewards and sock drawer them, maybe. But I use most of my Chase cards and the cards that I don't use are usually ones that I opened when I was younger and didn't really know which cards to get and only kept open because of credit age. I've never once re-opened a card to get an award a 2nd time and only closed 2 Chase cards in the past...

I don't think opening a card because of the sign-up bonus is "gaming" the system unless of course you never use that card again. I have done that with very very few of my cards. After all...they have the sign up bonuses for a reason!

sdsearch

No. You're confusing too issues. What only affects UR cards is the newer "5 cards in 24 months" or so.

But this is the "you're only getting cards for the rewards" line, which has been mentioned in threads about "shutdowns" much earlier than this May (which is when the "5 cards in 24 months" stuff started).

Chase has multiple policies against churners.

Make up your mind, is this the "5 cards in 24 months" issue (which is the only thing that "intelligenssia" said only affects UR cards), or the thing that you've been giving "longstanding" advice for a long time (and thus a different Chase issue than the latest one, if it's "longstanding")???

RNE

A rep motivated to (in your words) "make any excuse he could to get you off the phone" could have done so a lot sooner. Perhaps, just perhaps, your hunch about the rep's motivation is in error? Perhaps Chase is cracking down on "reward chasers." Silly of me to think that, I know.

I must commend you for your doggedness. However, I think Ockham would say the obvious explanation for denial was that the OP "appears to be reward chasing." But, again, that's probably silly of me.

RNE, leashing the dogma.