Occasionally in the shower ;-)

PS - I know you're sensitive on this subject so apologies - those pesky op ups must be so much more expensive to procure these days.....

OUCH! *Giggle Giggle*

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Re OP Topic: DXB is guaranteed long haul J, as is the rest of Middle East and India, even if PEY is no longer served.

CX have a number of sub fleets for their A330s, and with the decision to stop offering PEY into M.E./India, those flights continue to receive long haul products but without PEY.

PEY is certainly considered the world over as an "economy plus" not a "Business minus" - do not let the word "Premium" fool you, whatever airline's PEY you fly. If the product was too alike to J, airlines would be losing hundreds of J fliers to their PEY class and be cannibalising yield and revenues too.

On 4 class flights, J and F are grouped to premium cabins, and Y and PEY are grouped as economy cabins.

Indeed. I remember the arguments voiced when PEY was first introduced by some airlines: "we need to reward our clients who are willing/ready to pay full-fare economy" (note: by full fare, they meant high fares). So airlines designed a slightly-improved Y product. A major question raised is whether corporations would regard PEY as Y in their travel policy. If so, airlines need to have a truly Y concept and pricing.

To return to the topic, there is a significant business traffic between DXB and HKG, two major trading/finance centers. Hence business class is needed and loads are often good. But there is also a huge low-end market.

I am knowledgeable on this subject, not sensitive. I am merely engaging (or trying to) in what I thought would be a logical, reasonable, adult conversation. But I am once again amazed at the tendency for it to degenerate into teenage insults.

Again, this kind of mentality assumes everyone is paying out of their own pocket, most elite cabin flyers do not. They are on corporate travel and pay for by corporate. Do you think these people will just say to themselves they'll save their company some money just because a lower cabin is "good enough"?

Even for those that are paying out of cash, people that won't blink spending $6000 USD on a seat do not whine, nor care, about a lower cabin that is almost as good as the one they're in. If a person can comfortably afford $6000 USD to ensure himself a nice big and full-flat seat, he won't rather spend $3000 USD on a smaller, not full-flat seat, worse food, lower level of service and recognition.

If airlines really think like the way some of you do in this forum, then I am shock how little airlines know about the mentality of rich people that can afford elite cabins. The idea that you have to make your lower product bad to differentiate your elite products so rich people would spend is ridiculous.

When a person wants to buy a Lexus he doesn't care how good Toyota Avalon is, nor whine and cry that Toyota Avalon uses 80% parts that are the exact same thing as Lexus. He simply wants the damn Lexus because it's a luxury brand Lexus and it's a damn good car. Same thing with elite travel, these people don't give a hoo, or would even look at, PEY or Y and whine why it's almost 80% J. They want to fly CX J because CX is a damn good airline and J is a damn good product.

This is not about rich people. The richest people will book into J and F no matter what.

There are also some people who have more of a cost conscious budget and have to justify it more to pay into J or F, or who may be more easily swayed to paying less for PEY. Same goes to corporate contracts. Not every company can afford it or justify it.

This is why airlines have to differentiate the products across the board. There is no point having "similar" classes... then why have PEY at all?

Your analysis assumes that everyone booking into J whether out of own pocket or by their company earns the same amount of money!!! That is ridiculous and not the case. Lots won't think twice about PEY you are right, but there are those that will if there was little differentiation between J and PEY.

Same goes to your comment about corporate contracts - companies around the world are cutting corporate travel wherever possible. If CX made PEY to similar to J, you can bet they would lose corporate contracts from J to PEY. I mean just look at whats happening on short-haul... loads of companies cutting J corporate travel below 5-7 hours.

PEY has never been about J customers, its about people who normally fly Y but want some more benefits and are willing to pay a bit more for some more space, but would never dream about paying for J. So CX is not trying to make PEY a J minus product.

(This is coming from someone who did some work for Cathay and their PEY by the way...)

To add to CX828's post - take a look at Turkish Airlines - they had what widely considered the industry leading PEY product and by the far the most comfortable - and they have now removed it. Why? Because it cannibalised their J. Take a look at LH which just introduced PEY - they have specifically not even made it a separate cabin because they were concerned that J passengers would downgrade.

Your statement that "rich" people don't care about the cost of J/F tickets is ludicrous. I have flown Y precisely three times in my entire life but you can bet your bottom dollar that if PEY was good enough I'd switch from J in a heartbeat particularly on a daytime medium haul flight if the saving was reasonable.

TK is removing it as the product is not refined.

IB, SQ, LH and even Aeroflot are adding it because they realise the importance of up sale and to provide choice to large number of middle class that travel frequently but can not afford business every single trip.

TK's failure is that TK has a very complicated fleet and sales strategy and its PEY has not refined to suit the market.

Interestingly if you look at IAG's presentation on IB's PEY product, it adds more seats and reduce the aircraft weight by almost 750KGs.