Teece

Bearing in mind the sexual orientation of some of the male BA CC, that's not a bad job description for a female CSD...

jplondon

Yes I think we won't get far with this discussion indeed. Everyone comes at this from very different backgrounds, literally.

It is public transportation, whether Joe or whoever sees it like that or not.

It seems more a divide between people that never or only infrequently fly First or only because of miles can afford it and people that can afford it more freely, fly it a lot, and for whom First is really the only way to travel long haul. Saying that first is like a luxury retaurant and that with a child I should go sit in "a perfectly acceptable family restaurant" (I assume CW is meant? I hope not Y) is insane. Who decides what is perfectly acceptable for me? And I don't see it as a luxury restaurant or experience, I just see it as a bigger seat or area of space for me. If I want nice food I will go to a restaurant and it will always be better.

I agree that you should choose whatever airline you want but I don't think there are any that ban children, at least not the AF example given. They are very friendly to families.

CalFlyer

You decide. No doubt about that. And you have also made it clear that you make your decisions without consideration for the travel experience of others around you.

First class is NOT just public transportation, as much as a luxury restaurant is NOT just public feeding. There is a touch of enjoyment for the senses in both. Why do you think that airlines make a big fuss about the unique quality of experience and flight environment in first class?

It is your "I do whatever I want to do" attitude, prevalent in quite a few travellers with children (just noticed it again on a flight this morning), that has created this thread in the first place.

I was using an analogy, never claimed that first class IS a luxury restaurant.

LiviLion

When I fly I fly to meet my needs not those surrounding me. My two children (5 and 4 months) are quite welcome to sit with me in any cabin of my choice that I pay or redeem miles for. I will ensure my children behave as well as I can make them but if a baby wants to cry they are not doing it for amusement value so may often need some time to settle.

I don't ever get annoyed by others with crying babies in any cabin as I can understand what they are experiencing with the pressure issues as I used to get really bad ear pain years ago when flying so to a baby it must be horrendous if they are affected by the pressure changing.

Yes it is, any member of the public with the necessary method of obtaining a ticket (miles/money) and travel documents can purchase and travel. Sounds like public transport to me. If it was not public transport then it must by definition be private transport but that's just crazy talk.

It is completely unnaceptable to have children running around a cabin shouting and disturbing others. The parents need to deal with that but as this thread is about babies then often there is not much that can be done to resolve the crying quickly.

I am sure the majority of pax are also quite considerate and can tolerate a bit of baby crying on a plane now and again.

As you feel so strongly about the situation why not write in to WW with your ideas and see what reply you get.

YClass

Surely you can get any transport with the right money..... does that making everything public transport? Typically public transport is provided for the public by a state or supported by the state I would have thought. Often referred to as mass transit. In the case of flying I would imagine Ryanair is the closest to public transport - and the flight experience is similar to a London bus!

Remember we are talking about crying for vast majority, if not the whole flight, not a couple of minutes.

Actually I beg to differ. Hard to prove except by global poll, but from the general facial expressions on flights and comments in websites/articles they tend towards people not preferrring kids in premium class on a plane. Go on seatguru or was it seatexpert and look at their description of bassinet F seats for example (no I'm not basing my point just on that! lol).... In my business my colleagues definately don't like it (we all travel quite a bit in a variety of classes these days) and one whose parent works for BA keeps saying how when he was a kid he wasn't allowed in Club/FIRST due to 12yo limit (might have been the parents just saying). He wants it back.

LiviLion

We are also talking about an isolated incident. Sure a few other people have added evidence to this thread with their own experiences but it's still a very low amount.

If we were to compare the number of threads about crying babies vs grown adults behaving badly (drunk, snoring, DYKWIA types) in first/C across FT then I am sure that the adults would score badly compared to the babies.

Maybe F should be a child only zone and all the adults banished to the back of the plane.

I suppose in summary we can all agree that you never know who is going to be in the cabin with you and you are just as likely to experience a badly behaved adult as a badly behaved child as a uncomfortable baby and at the end of the day there's nothing that can be done about it.

Greg66

You are confusing two distinct concepts: publicly owned transport (eg a nationalized rail system, incidentally open to the public) and transport open to the public.

And to answer your rhetorical question with an example, even a chartered jet is public transport. Any member of the public with the necessary resources can hire one. Usually, that means hire to the exclusion of other users. One could do the same with the entire first class cabin, a cinema, of (more usually a taxi).

As has been said repeatedly in this thread, those who do not care to run the risk of travelling with a segment of the public on a plane should hire their own plane or block book a cabin. Otherwise, complaining about sharing their public travel experience with the public is somewhat hollow.

Greg66

Ah. So it wasn't you. Check yer pm.

ssnz

I don't think one can fail to agree that is is public transport it you're going to sit and be extremely black and white.

However..... it's a bit like the difference between McDonalds and The Ivy. One you expect kids and bad food, the other not so much. And the reason you have different expectations? Because they market themselves differently - just like BA and others advertise cabin class experiences differently.

uk1

Public transport or not.

Perhaps the answer is for some emboldened and forward-thinking airline to simply get rid of the anachronistic and puzzling policy of having adult passengers subsidise the travel of minors and babies.

The notion of cross-loading other travellers fares with a contribution towards the cost of other people's children is a lovely socialist idealistic idea but why on earth should adults have to pay a bit more to subsidise the travel of families? Families would then gravitate towards the airlines that continued the subsidy and the poor and nast people left - adults only - would have a child-free and slightly cheaper travelling environemnt.

Only said in jest you understand.

sunrisegirl

I think we all do that. However when flying on public transport we should all have a responsibility to behave in a civilised and courteous way and respect the needs of those around us. That is simply a moral and decent thing to do. Many parents don't bother.

Afraid not, there's far more threads about badly behaved children and crying babies than there are about adults behaving badly on FT. And it's far from an isolated incident.

If an adult ran up and down the aircraft screaming and upsetting other passengers they'd, quite rightly, be ordered to stop or perhaps even restrained.

Perhaps, but in that case all infants and children would need to be charged the same fare as an adult.

In all my years of travelling, I've thankfully only once had a badly behaved adult in the cabin with me, but I've lost count of the number of screaming children whose parents have no interest in controlling them.

But as I said before, and my neighbour (a parent of three aged from 3 - 6) agreed, we've allowed children to rule us and that's why so many behave so badly these days.

sunrisegirl

Yeah right - many a true word and all that

uk1

I couldn't possibly comment!

Greg66

Because, at its simplest, next year's harvest is this year's seed. And as long as the man on the next farm is planting for next year, it's prudent to do likewise.

uk1

I'm losing the will to live .................