I'm fed up with FIRST/BA - we're being ripped off
Oct 28, 2006, 1:38 am
#91
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Posts: 4,786
Originally Posted by _Sin
I've never flown in F, but I was planning to do so at some point in the future, for the sake of spending all the miles I've been accumulating.
I'm not entirely put off by the comments in this thread, but I am now having second thoughts
Are some routes better than others, or is it (as generally seems the case) just dependant on the crew you get on the day?
I'm not entirely put off by the comments in this thread, but I am now having second thoughts
Are some routes better than others, or is it (as generally seems the case) just dependant on the crew you get on the day?
However, even this methodology is imperfect.
LHR-NRT, LHR-HKG tend to be good routes, but as observed by number_6, the return legs can be more miss than hit. I've found the kanga route sub par, which ever way you fly it, especially the return Oz-BKK / SIN leg (attributable to the short layover crews get in Oz, which always tends to make them a bit grumpy through lack of sleep).
LHR-GRU-LHR enjoys pretty healthy loads up front, but generally the service is better on the outbound, as well as the short hop up from EZE - different crew.
All things considered, IMO it's down to age and experience: maturer crews tend to get it just right, younger and less experienced crews not.
Oct 28, 2006, 4:57 am
#92
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,774
Originally Posted by oyster
A few changes that could be made to improve BA F:
Zero or Low-Cost:
Costs a bit more:
Requires Lots of Money:
Zero or Low-Cost:
- PJs in sizes that fit humans and not elephants.
- Vary the menu more. It's boring when it's always red meat, chicken, fish or veggie to choose from.
- Announce from the lounge when one can board that is genuinely last call. If they say a gate is 5 mins walk away (which I can easily do in 2/3 mins), then why are final boarding calls being made 10 mins before? Are most 1st pax so damn fat that they feel they need to do this? Or do I suspect they just want to go home earlier?!
- Priority ahead of CW and Gold pax on booking Molton Brown spa treatments.
- Service in the CCR. I think in 5 visits, I have seen maybe one or two staff smile in the CCR! I am always polite and smile, but I just seem to notice a lot of grumpiness. Plus an element of job knowledge wouldn't go amiss. On my last visit I asked for a glass of the CH Mis En Cave champers and the response from the waiter was "Is that the blue or the red one?"
- The onboard soft-drink selection is the same as Y. What about some diet lemonade or diet sprite?
- Stop unwrapping the afternoon tea sandwiches so much in advance of serving them. The air onboard is so dry that the sandwiches become more like crispbreads by the time they arrive.
Costs a bit more:
- Better champagne. Even if it's not Krug or Dom, at least it should be a premium marque or vintage.
- Offer a removable headrest. It's great for sitting but really gets in the way when sleeping. So much so, I end up sleeping head first normally.
- Use the CCR as a proper F lounge and not just one that is near identical to the F lounge overflowing with Gold card holders travelling to AMS and CDG. This means premium service, premium food, premium champagnes.
- Upgrade the quality of food. As someone else pointed out, use local organic and seasonal produce where possible. The canapes and sandwiches are particularly 'cheap' at the moment. It's First class for goodness sake - I want at least a little bit of things like foie gras, truffles and caviar. And the chocolates - Lily O'Briens are given out in CE, surely they are not of F standard.
- Can we have REALLY big screens in F to go along with the AVOD roll-out? I have the distinct impression the F pax will get exactly the same as the CW pax in this regard whilst other airlines continue to offer a distinction.
- Proper goose down pillows and duvets and not the man-made crap currently used.
- A closet at the front that opens, closes and latches quietly.
- First pax should be escorted past any queue in the airbridge and straight onto the plane.
Requires Lots of Money:
- Dedicated F service on the ground. Separate Fast Track security that is not shared with CW and separate boarding arrangements using a fleet of private buses of limos.
- A lounge that beats anything that VS can do and more.
- A cabin makeover - new carpets, new trim, softer seats, new seat covers. Maybe some nice leather trim and lose the tacky fake wood.
- Individual temperature control around your seat
Oct 29, 2006, 1:14 am
#93
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Portland OR Double Emerald (QF and AA), DL PM/MM, Starwood Plat
Posts: 19,589
Originally Posted by virtualtroy
....All things considered, IMO it's down to age and experience: maturer crews tend to get it just right, younger and less experienced crews not.
Oct 29, 2006, 1:10 am
#94
Join Date: Mar 2002
Programs: QF Platinum (OW Emerald); QF Lifestime Silver; BD Diamond Club Gold (*A Gold)
Posts: 4,786
Originally Posted by number_6
Some crew seem to genuinely not be familiar with some elements of the service
Oct 29, 2006, 2:47 am
#95
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: London
Posts: 2,809
Originally Posted by number_6
Many times I've had the crew tell me that they don't have something, then I proceed to describe what it is and how to find it (sadly I have learned some of these things), and of course it magically turns up to be available.
Oct 29, 2006, 11:01 am
#96
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Portland OR Double Emerald (QF and AA), DL PM/MM, Starwood Plat
Posts: 19,589
They are all little things. I too have had the virtualtroy experience (J instead of F baag, when they were readily available), the 4 inserts, stationary, cards, and the worst example is the right kind of glass (yes, cognac served in the wrong glass), or some food missing (no longer in the catering, this was a while ago). No PJs (but reminding the crew where to look for more PJs magically found them). Things like that, really nothing important, but this would never have happened in the old BA F service, and I had the sense that the crew simply didn't know, rather than not wanting to do it right.
Oct 29, 2006, 11:10 am
#97
Moderator: GLBT travelers, India-based Airlines and India; FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Location: Asia
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Posts: 15,512
Originally Posted by number_6
No PJs (but reminding the crew where to look for more PJs magically found them).
Might need this info on my upcoming day flight in F!
Oct 29, 2006, 5:57 pm
#98
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Location: UK
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Posts: 12,695
Originally Posted by AJLondon
Care to elaborate as to where the PJs are stored?
Might need this info on my upcoming day flight in F!
Might need this info on my upcoming day flight in F!
(Big green bag certainly, exact label I couldn’t make out properly as I saw it being accessed, that’s my best guess).number_6 - does the stationary still exist? I thought it had gone the way of the comb
I've certainly never seen it. The extra female and/or male inserts do still exist, but I've not seen any other goodies
Oct 29, 2006, 11:43 pm
#99
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: LotusLand...
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Posts: 635
Originally Posted by bealine
To be perfectly honest, I think it was when the Flat Bed in Club World and the WT+ cabin was launched that our difficulties with First began!
As staff, we asked Bob Ayling if the Club Flat Bed would not stop our corporate clients purchasing First tickets - "Not a bit of it!" quoth he "Differnt market, old boy! Different market!"
Yet that is exactly what we have experienced. Take a full 14 seat F cabin on any typical sector - in all probability 2 seats will be taken by pax paying the full "F" fare, 2 seats will be taken by senior airline managers or flying crew on free or heavily discounted tickets, 4 seats will be taken by fare-paying passengers on heavily discounted tickets, 4 seats will be "Op Ups" from Club World, 2 seats will be mileage awards (producing zero revenue for BA).
If this is compared to the situation pre-Bob's Tail Fins debacle (the arrogance of which told its customers we were making so much profit out of them that we could afford to squander it), when everything BA touched turned to gold, the First cabin may not have had such a high load-factor, but the majority of its passengers travelled on full "F" fares.
Coupled with this, the offering of ever-lower fares in the WT cabin leads to higher than ever load factors, but with diluted revenue. When revenue falls and the push for profit becomes ever greater, the pressure to achieve ever greater cost savings increases.
Gordon Bethune, former CEO of Continental Airlines stated in his book "From Worst to First" that one of his main formulae for success when turning CO's fortunes around was to achieve substantial savings without the customer being able to notice. "After all," he stated, "they have paid the same price for their ticket as they did last week - they will sure as hell notice if you don't offer them that second cup of coffee in flight that you always have done before!"
The cost-cutting in BA has gone so deep that customer service has suffered - both on the ground and in the air! It is very sad to see New Club World being enhanced yet again (new seats, new IFE, new catering) without any mention of improvements to First. For sure, times move on, I'm sure no-one on this board would expect a joint of meat to be carved alongside your table any more in First (BOAC used to do it!), but it should still be an exclusive cabin and our customers should be made to feel like royalty or celebrities for the duration of their trip!
There are not many carriers out there now that have a proper First Class. It is our opportunity to shine and show our customers the reason why BA is different! For many of our customers, it is a once-in-a-lifetime experience (just as Concorde was) to celebrate and, as a company, we should be wanting them to tell their family and friends just how wonderful it was - that's how more bookings are generated!
As far as the crew situation is concerned, we went through a very bad phase where we shut First cabins down due to crew shortages a couple of years ago. This was followed by a period where very few crew actually wanted to work in First so you ended up, frequently, with a relatively junior crew member up there. Bless 'Em, they tried hard, but without the polish that our crew develop with (....ahem) a few years service, there will be inevitable faux pas and we all have a few "Gor Blimey" tales from that period that we would rather forget!
To those customers who have remained loyal to BA, simply because it is BA, Thank You! I have to say, we are lucky to have a hell of a lot of supportive customers in all cabins who continue to fly again and again - despite all the strikes, the baggage mayhem and the latest security fiasco!
I just hope we have an announcement about First class improvements soon!
(Sorry to make this post so long, but the slow deterioration of First Class is one area I really feel passionate about and, if I could influence one thing within British Airways, this would be my target!)
As staff, we asked Bob Ayling if the Club Flat Bed would not stop our corporate clients purchasing First tickets - "Not a bit of it!" quoth he "Differnt market, old boy! Different market!"
Yet that is exactly what we have experienced. Take a full 14 seat F cabin on any typical sector - in all probability 2 seats will be taken by pax paying the full "F" fare, 2 seats will be taken by senior airline managers or flying crew on free or heavily discounted tickets, 4 seats will be taken by fare-paying passengers on heavily discounted tickets, 4 seats will be "Op Ups" from Club World, 2 seats will be mileage awards (producing zero revenue for BA).
If this is compared to the situation pre-Bob's Tail Fins debacle (the arrogance of which told its customers we were making so much profit out of them that we could afford to squander it), when everything BA touched turned to gold, the First cabin may not have had such a high load-factor, but the majority of its passengers travelled on full "F" fares.
Coupled with this, the offering of ever-lower fares in the WT cabin leads to higher than ever load factors, but with diluted revenue. When revenue falls and the push for profit becomes ever greater, the pressure to achieve ever greater cost savings increases.
Gordon Bethune, former CEO of Continental Airlines stated in his book "From Worst to First" that one of his main formulae for success when turning CO's fortunes around was to achieve substantial savings without the customer being able to notice. "After all," he stated, "they have paid the same price for their ticket as they did last week - they will sure as hell notice if you don't offer them that second cup of coffee in flight that you always have done before!"
The cost-cutting in BA has gone so deep that customer service has suffered - both on the ground and in the air! It is very sad to see New Club World being enhanced yet again (new seats, new IFE, new catering) without any mention of improvements to First. For sure, times move on, I'm sure no-one on this board would expect a joint of meat to be carved alongside your table any more in First (BOAC used to do it!), but it should still be an exclusive cabin and our customers should be made to feel like royalty or celebrities for the duration of their trip!
There are not many carriers out there now that have a proper First Class. It is our opportunity to shine and show our customers the reason why BA is different! For many of our customers, it is a once-in-a-lifetime experience (just as Concorde was) to celebrate and, as a company, we should be wanting them to tell their family and friends just how wonderful it was - that's how more bookings are generated!
As far as the crew situation is concerned, we went through a very bad phase where we shut First cabins down due to crew shortages a couple of years ago. This was followed by a period where very few crew actually wanted to work in First so you ended up, frequently, with a relatively junior crew member up there. Bless 'Em, they tried hard, but without the polish that our crew develop with (....ahem) a few years service, there will be inevitable faux pas and we all have a few "Gor Blimey" tales from that period that we would rather forget!
To those customers who have remained loyal to BA, simply because it is BA, Thank You! I have to say, we are lucky to have a hell of a lot of supportive customers in all cabins who continue to fly again and again - despite all the strikes, the baggage mayhem and the latest security fiasco!
I just hope we have an announcement about First class improvements soon!
(Sorry to make this post so long, but the slow deterioration of First Class is one area I really feel passionate about and, if I could influence one thing within British Airways, this would be my target!)
Nov 19, 2006, 5:27 pm
#100
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA 1K, Starwood/Marriott Plat, Others of little note
Posts: 1,148
Originally Posted by starlight
Ok, don't bite my head off!!
I know I don't write a lot on here but I got so fed up I have put fingers to keys. Please don't think this is just a rant, but I would be interested as to what everyone thinks and what we might all do about it (any lurkers?), if you guys and gals agree with me:
I am very lucky and always fly in First (or CE) - sorry, it's true- and so have the gold card, the miles (what use are they!) but I have come to the conclusion, after more than 20 years of being a loyal (and I mean bloody loyal) BA customer that I am astonished BA are in what is supposed to be a service industry.
Can I just start, however, by thanking all the staff who are on the 'old' contracts (you know what I mean) and suggest that new staff/agency workers, etc. think about living up to the ideals that once made BA great. Mind you, I don't think they reward staff any more...
Those of you who have never flown First, don't get excited. I think we all know that quality of a flight depends on the crew and it seems to me that there is about a 1 in 5 chance nowadays of getting a crew member who give a damn about a pax. On my recent flights, the food was awful (so bad the CSD asked me to fill out a questionnaire he then stapled to his in-flight report), the IFE hardly ever works (made to change seats on every flight recently to watch safety video) and the crew were just not up to it.
If I hear another crew member moan about getting 10 pax on at once and not being able to do drinks...I tried this with friends at a dinner party the other day and managed to take orders and deliver drinks on my own in 6 minutes. They never have the right size sleeper suits and when flying to SYD they never change your suit at refuelling (ok, minor point!).
I am also fed up of hearing crew members going on about how hard they work - I used to be a junior doctor and I worked an average of 110 hours a week: they do an 11 flight and sleep for some of it; what the hell is SO difficult??? Don't give me the safety crap - I did aviation medicine and know a lot more than the crew about it (sounding arrogant am I? Sorry).
Sorry, I now feel I am ranting.
To sum up: we pay a lot of money for an F or A class ticket and the service we get is simply not reflected in the price. There is nothing luxurious about it and it does NOT live up to what ba.com says about it. It is obvious when greeted by the crew on the 'old' contract and they are a vanishing breed - the ones I have spoken to are ashamed at how BA is going. Bring back the days when the pax was important - please!
I know I don't write a lot on here but I got so fed up I have put fingers to keys. Please don't think this is just a rant, but I would be interested as to what everyone thinks and what we might all do about it (any lurkers?), if you guys and gals agree with me:
I am very lucky and always fly in First (or CE) - sorry, it's true- and so have the gold card, the miles (what use are they!) but I have come to the conclusion, after more than 20 years of being a loyal (and I mean bloody loyal) BA customer that I am astonished BA are in what is supposed to be a service industry.
Can I just start, however, by thanking all the staff who are on the 'old' contracts (you know what I mean) and suggest that new staff/agency workers, etc. think about living up to the ideals that once made BA great. Mind you, I don't think they reward staff any more...
Those of you who have never flown First, don't get excited. I think we all know that quality of a flight depends on the crew and it seems to me that there is about a 1 in 5 chance nowadays of getting a crew member who give a damn about a pax. On my recent flights, the food was awful (so bad the CSD asked me to fill out a questionnaire he then stapled to his in-flight report), the IFE hardly ever works (made to change seats on every flight recently to watch safety video) and the crew were just not up to it.
If I hear another crew member moan about getting 10 pax on at once and not being able to do drinks...I tried this with friends at a dinner party the other day and managed to take orders and deliver drinks on my own in 6 minutes. They never have the right size sleeper suits and when flying to SYD they never change your suit at refuelling (ok, minor point!).
I am also fed up of hearing crew members going on about how hard they work - I used to be a junior doctor and I worked an average of 110 hours a week: they do an 11 flight and sleep for some of it; what the hell is SO difficult??? Don't give me the safety crap - I did aviation medicine and know a lot more than the crew about it (sounding arrogant am I? Sorry).
Sorry, I now feel I am ranting.
To sum up: we pay a lot of money for an F or A class ticket and the service we get is simply not reflected in the price. There is nothing luxurious about it and it does NOT live up to what ba.com says about it. It is obvious when greeted by the crew on the 'old' contract and they are a vanishing breed - the ones I have spoken to are ashamed at how BA is going. Bring back the days when the pax was important - please!
Nov 19, 2006, 11:45 pm
#101
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YVR occasionally
Programs: OW Emerald (AA-EXP, BA-Gold)
Posts: 261
While it is easy and tempting to engage in BA (First) bashing, I’d suggest that most F services are significantly worse than a few years ago. And unless you are willing to make some dubious tradeoffs in ratings (as per the recent Forbes ranking), I’m not sure that there is a clear winner (or even meaningful ranking) in terms of current offerings.
Within the past month having flown in First on AA, BA, CX, and EK over 4 continents, I can see pros and cons of each. The main conclusion I’d draw is that the BA First experience is the most variable. For example, unlike Number6, out of four recent BA First experiences, the poorest has been YVR-LHR (is it really that hard to use a passenger’s name rather than “sir” and “madam”—even EgyptAir’s business class FAs can manage that). Incidentally, the best BA first experience was on LHR-CAI. On the other hand, surprisingly, the least attentive crew was on a recent JFK-YVR run—there should have been an “L” sign on the side of the cabin. To bring in another airline, a QF First flight last year (JNB-SYD) was particularly good.
I like many of the thoughtful suggestions of "oyster"—and especially appreciate the categorization in terms of costliness of making changes. I guess it is important to keep searching. I’ll try TG later this month but given the comments about LH, it sounds like they are doing some things right.
Within the past month having flown in First on AA, BA, CX, and EK over 4 continents, I can see pros and cons of each. The main conclusion I’d draw is that the BA First experience is the most variable. For example, unlike Number6, out of four recent BA First experiences, the poorest has been YVR-LHR (is it really that hard to use a passenger’s name rather than “sir” and “madam”—even EgyptAir’s business class FAs can manage that). Incidentally, the best BA first experience was on LHR-CAI. On the other hand, surprisingly, the least attentive crew was on a recent JFK-YVR run—there should have been an “L” sign on the side of the cabin. To bring in another airline, a QF First flight last year (JNB-SYD) was particularly good.
I like many of the thoughtful suggestions of "oyster"—and especially appreciate the categorization in terms of costliness of making changes. I guess it is important to keep searching. I’ll try TG later this month but given the comments about LH, it sounds like they are doing some things right.
Nov 20, 2006, 2:41 am
#102
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Cardiff, UK
Programs: BA GGL, Concorde Room card, KLM Silver, PC Platinum Ambassador, Marriott Platinum, UA Premier Silver
Posts: 5,278
Originally Posted by jedison
If they got paid like doctors I doubt you'd hear as much complaining.
Nov 20, 2006, 3:02 am
#103
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: England
Programs: PC Amb., BA Blue
Posts: 5,418
Originally Posted by jedison
If they got paid like doctors I doubt you'd hear as much complaining.
Nov 20, 2006, 3:03 am
#104
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: England
Programs: PC Amb., BA Blue
Posts: 5,418
Originally Posted by jedison
If they got paid like doctors I doubt you'd hear as much complaining.
Nov 20, 2006, 4:52 am
#105
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: MUCCI
Posts: 1,926
I'd like to add the following having read so much about BA F:
Firstly, although I agree that the A Class First ticket is substantially less than full fare (and can be often less than a full J fare in CW) don't forget that many in CW will be on I class or corporate fares which are also massivley discounted so the issue of revenue in J compared to F gets even more complex.
However, it is fair to say that on average F is considerably more expensive than J.
I have been in F many times and I have to say that it is variable what you get in terms of service. However, overall it does feel that the service in F has been slowly downgraded over the years. It will be interesting to see if the new enhancements and turndown service will really make much improvement. I somehow doubt that they will.
If BA really wants to have a true F Class then with the new refit due in 2008 there need to be far less seats in F so that they are much bigger. With 14 seats in the allotted space for F at the front of the cabin there is now very little difference between the size of the seats in F and J.
With regard to revenue, I have often heard it said that if F is full then the flight is in profit (even allowing for air miles tickets and A Class) so ther is scope to improve matters considerably.
Somehow, having recieved the email about compulsary on line check in and the way it is going I doubt that much of this will ever happen. F should be what beloved Concorde used to be, a trully memorable experience.
Firstly, although I agree that the A Class First ticket is substantially less than full fare (and can be often less than a full J fare in CW) don't forget that many in CW will be on I class or corporate fares which are also massivley discounted so the issue of revenue in J compared to F gets even more complex.
However, it is fair to say that on average F is considerably more expensive than J.
I have been in F many times and I have to say that it is variable what you get in terms of service. However, overall it does feel that the service in F has been slowly downgraded over the years. It will be interesting to see if the new enhancements and turndown service will really make much improvement. I somehow doubt that they will.
If BA really wants to have a true F Class then with the new refit due in 2008 there need to be far less seats in F so that they are much bigger. With 14 seats in the allotted space for F at the front of the cabin there is now very little difference between the size of the seats in F and J.
With regard to revenue, I have often heard it said that if F is full then the flight is in profit (even allowing for air miles tickets and A Class) so ther is scope to improve matters considerably.
Somehow, having recieved the email about compulsary on line check in and the way it is going I doubt that much of this will ever happen. F should be what beloved Concorde used to be, a trully memorable experience.