UK Border Force Christmas strike - confirmed dates
Dec 13, 2022, 3:17 am
#121
Join Date: Nov 2018
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I suspect that if, like me, you are a UK resident/passport holder then you have very limited interaction with Border Force – probably down to the occasional time that you can’t get through the eGates or if you are travelling with young children. As a UK passport holder then there are no decisions to make as we are allowed to come and go as we please and cannot be stopped from doing so by Border Force, once they’ve established our nationality. Equally, as a non UK eGate user, the interaction is by and large pretty limited. It’s when dealing with people who don’t fit those categories, who go into that right hand lane at T5 and who may be entering the country with nefarious purposes or intent/forged/false documents that the skill would come in trying to identify the transgressors and thus make entry decisions.
Dec 13, 2022, 3:52 am
#122
Join Date: Nov 2018
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Also, on the point of the striking, are you saying that people should only go on strike if their job is ‘skilled’? In which case that would preclude an awful lot of the strikes that are going on this month. And then you have the issue that people whose jobs are skilled but also get paid a reasonable amount, well why are they going on strike? For example my journey into London has been affected to some degree for years, because of the rail workers going on strike incessantly. I have no sympathy for them as they are reasonably paid and they’ve massively overused the strike tactic. I don’t support them and frankly I’m sick and tired of them going on strike. Most people I know are.
On the flip side BA pilots ground the airline to a halt a couple of years ago with their strike - a relatively rare situation. I support them, out of loyalty because my family has a fairly high percentage of BA (serving or retired) flight crew in it. It’s a skilled job and should be paid commensurately. But few people in the general population (outside of this forum) had a huge amount of sympathy with them because they are perceived to be paid pretty well.
Ultimately though people are going on strike now, not because they feel their job is worth more, but because the cost of living pay increase that they are receiving is far less than the actual increase in the cost of living. Border Force, from memory, don’t seem to go on strike that much, and don't seem to get paid a huge amount either so if they want to strike now and it’s legitimate (it is) then they should be allowed to do that. Personally I don’t really agree with striking of any sort, but I also respect that it’s a legitimate tactic if it’s not overused (Rail workers take note!!!)
On the flip side BA pilots ground the airline to a halt a couple of years ago with their strike - a relatively rare situation. I support them, out of loyalty because my family has a fairly high percentage of BA (serving or retired) flight crew in it. It’s a skilled job and should be paid commensurately. But few people in the general population (outside of this forum) had a huge amount of sympathy with them because they are perceived to be paid pretty well.
Ultimately though people are going on strike now, not because they feel their job is worth more, but because the cost of living pay increase that they are receiving is far less than the actual increase in the cost of living. Border Force, from memory, don’t seem to go on strike that much, and don't seem to get paid a huge amount either so if they want to strike now and it’s legitimate (it is) then they should be allowed to do that. Personally I don’t really agree with striking of any sort, but I also respect that it’s a legitimate tactic if it’s not overused (Rail workers take note!!!)
Dec 13, 2022, 4:42 am
#123
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,061
What you’ve missed is that it’s the same people working front of house and back office. If the officer you see suspects foul play, they don’t hand you to a colleague, they take you away for an interview which they handle themselves. It’s essential because they can then use what they were told at the desk in their questioning.
Dec 13, 2022, 4:48 am
#124
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 503
I wouldn't make the mistake of thinking that you can judge a person's job based on your own 30 second interaction with them.
in that 30 seconds, they will, I assume, have assessed your passport for potential forgery, assessed your immigration status against some pretty complex rules, interpreted any data associated with you, assessed risks of people trafficking, etc.
in that 30 seconds, they will, I assume, have assessed your passport for potential forgery, assessed your immigration status against some pretty complex rules, interpreted any data associated with you, assessed risks of people trafficking, etc.
And to your points I would say that most are incorrect. Forgery (except in blatantly obvious forgery like incorrect front cover) is detected by the passport scanners. Immigration, for the vast vast majority, is linked to citizenship, passports and visas and comes down to computer says yes/no as that's where all the information is stored. Again remember, for the vast majority of people the e-gates (a machine) is making all these same decisions. The trafficking point I can somewhat agree with but I'm not fully convinced that this skill based. I think it's more intuition and perception along with a couple of pointers of what to look out for. I won't argue that experience definitely helps in that scenario but I don't think it's enough of a point to consider it skilled labour.
Dec 13, 2022, 4:51 am
#125
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 503
Your post reminds me of the guy whose car won't start. Calls mechanic who comes along, gets out a hammer, whacks the starter motor, guy gets back in his car and it starts. "I could have done that" he said. "Of course you could" said the mechanic, "but knowing exactly what was wrong and why and where to hit it is priceless and comes from years of apprencticeship". I have no clue what goes on with UKBF training but I'm sure it ain't just scanning a few passports here and there.
Dec 13, 2022, 4:55 am
#126
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With due respect you started off by saying "Please don't mistake this, this is guessing alone." yet you seem to have already made up your mind that they don't do a particularly skilled job and are paid well enough already - as if in any case when you get to a certain pay level you somehow don't qualify for increases to compensate for inflation anymore. If you want to share your "fair bit of research" which you now claim to have done, please do so.
As Saladman has noted, you can't possibly appreciate what they are doing and what skills and experience they need, so let's not go down the usual lazy arguments which are along the lines of I don't think they do anything skilled and they should be grateful for what they get, especially when it is based on ignorance.
Btw if you detect I am fed up of this thread being derailed by those who wish to carry on their particular agenda in to the merits of the strike, you would be correct!
As Saladman has noted, you can't possibly appreciate what they are doing and what skills and experience they need, so let's not go down the usual lazy arguments which are along the lines of I don't think they do anything skilled and they should be grateful for what they get, especially when it is based on ignorance.
Btw if you detect I am fed up of this thread being derailed by those who wish to carry on their particular agenda in to the merits of the strike, you would be correct!
Dec 13, 2022, 5:10 am
#127
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 503
With due respect you started off by saying "Please don't mistake this, this is guessing alone." yet you seem to have already made up your mind that they don't do a particularly skilled job and are paid well enough already - as if in any case when you get to a certain pay level you somehow don't qualify for increases to compensate for inflation anymore. If you want to share your "fair bit of research" which you now claim to have done, please do so.
As Saladman has noted, you can't possibly appreciate what they are doing and what skills and experience they need, so let's not go down the usual lazy arguments which are along the lines of I don't think they do anything skilled and they should be grateful for what they get, especially when it is based on ignorance.
Btw if you detect I am fed up of this thread being derailed by those who wish to carry on their particular agenda in to the merits of the strike, you would be correct!
As Saladman has noted, you can't possibly appreciate what they are doing and what skills and experience they need, so let's not go down the usual lazy arguments which are along the lines of I don't think they do anything skilled and they should be grateful for what they get, especially when it is based on ignorance.
Btw if you detect I am fed up of this thread being derailed by those who wish to carry on their particular agenda in to the merits of the strike, you would be correct!
And as Saladman did indeed note, I cannot possibly appreciate the skills and experience needed - that's precisely what I'm trying to understand! You seem to be under the impression that I am bypassing that point. I am not. That point is precisely what I am trying to understand. It's the crux of the post
And i should point out that every point you made has no logical nor factual basis. Now you'll say neither does mine. Correct! It's a question, I am trying to understand the logical arguement, not sidestep it. Responses like this are not helpful in the slightest. If you disagree with my post please bring some sort of evidence or logic based arguement. My original post is a question. Responses followed. I then either agreed or disagreed with sound reasoning (such as the computer and e-gates decisions - these are facts).
And to make myself clear I'm not arguing for or against strike action in general and what my views are on that. One very big reason of a strike is to show an employer that the workers are essential. If, as I suspect, they are fairly replaceable this will undermine the strikers/unions position massively.
My views on whether strikes are good or bad, justified or not have not been discussed and are not relevant. If you would like to have a debate about the economics and morals that go with them, by all means on another thread or private messages just not here so as to not distract from the original intention - are UKBF fairly replaceable - if not, why
Dec 13, 2022, 5:21 am
#128
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 503
Also, on the point of the striking, are you saying that people should only go on strike if their job is ‘skilled’? In which case that would preclude an awful lot of the strikes that are going on this month. And then you have the issue that people whose jobs are skilled but also get paid a reasonable amount, well why are they going on strike? For example my journey into London has been affected to some degree for years, because of the rail workers going on strike incessantly. I have no sympathy for them as they are reasonably paid and they’ve massively overused the strike tactic. I don’t support them and frankly I’m sick and tired of them going on strike. Most people I know are.
On the flip side BA pilots ground the airline to a halt a couple of years ago with their strike - a relatively rare situation. I support them, out of loyalty because my family has a fairly high percentage of BA (serving or retired) flight crew in it. It’s a skilled job and should be paid commensurately. But few people in the general population (outside of this forum) had a huge amount of sympathy with them because they are perceived to be paid pretty well.
Ultimately though people are going on strike now, not because they feel their job is worth more, but because the cost of living pay increase that they are receiving is far less than the actual increase in the cost of living. Border Force, from memory, don’t seem to go on strike that much, and don't seem to get paid a huge amount either so if they want to strike now and it’s legitimate (it is) then they should be allowed to do that. Personally I don’t really agree with striking of any sort, but I also respect that it’s a legitimate tactic if it’s not overused (Rail workers take note!!!)
On the flip side BA pilots ground the airline to a halt a couple of years ago with their strike - a relatively rare situation. I support them, out of loyalty because my family has a fairly high percentage of BA (serving or retired) flight crew in it. It’s a skilled job and should be paid commensurately. But few people in the general population (outside of this forum) had a huge amount of sympathy with them because they are perceived to be paid pretty well.
Ultimately though people are going on strike now, not because they feel their job is worth more, but because the cost of living pay increase that they are receiving is far less than the actual increase in the cost of living. Border Force, from memory, don’t seem to go on strike that much, and don't seem to get paid a huge amount either so if they want to strike now and it’s legitimate (it is) then they should be allowed to do that. Personally I don’t really agree with striking of any sort, but I also respect that it’s a legitimate tactic if it’s not overused (Rail workers take note!!!)
You do make many good points regarding strikes in general. However, I am solely focused on the strikes of the UKBF.
From where I stand I believe them to be fairly replaceable. If that is the case then asking for 10% pay rise AND job security is not justified - they can be replaced. That's from an economic perspective. A moral perspective is different.
If you believe that they are not replaceable then obviously their demands cannot be undercut by new hires and there is what to talk about. If you believe this to be the case please bring some logical points as to why it is the case.
And to Saladman, KARFA and anyone else: you may make many good points about striking in general. But that's not relevant to the case at hand. I'm more than happy to discuss that somewhere else, just not here.
Here my sole intention is to find out if they're replaceable. If they are then that's a problematic position for unions and strikers. If you do not think they are replaceable, why?
Hope I've been clear enough
Dec 13, 2022, 5:24 am
#129
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KARFA I think you have completely misinterpreted my post. I have not made my mind up yet. I thought I made that point clear multiple times. However, just because someone gives a response does not mean that the conversation ends there. If their points are true and correct I will accept them as I did. If not then I will argue, based off logic and reason as I did.
And as Saladman did indeed note, I cannot possibly appreciate the skills and experience needed - that's precisely what I'm trying to understand! You seem to be under the impression that I am bypassing that point. I am not. That point is precisely what I am trying to understand. It's the crux of the post
And i should point out that every point you made has no logical nor factual basis. Now you'll say neither does mine. Correct! It's a question, I am trying to understand the logical arguement, not sidestep it. Responses like this are not helpful in the slightest. If you disagree with my post please bring some sort of evidence or logic based arguement. My original post is a question. Responses followed. I then either agreed or disagreed with sound reasoning (such as the computer and e-gates decisions - these are facts).
And to make myself clear I'm not arguing for or against strike action in general and what my views are on that. One very big reason of a strike is to show an employer that the workers are essential. If, as I suspect, they are fairly replaceable this will undermine the strikers/unions position massively.
My views on whether strikes are good or bad, justified or not have not been discussed and are not relevant. If you would like to have a debate about the economics and morals that go with them, by all means on another thread or private messages just not here so as to not distract from the original intention - are UKBF fairly replaceable - if not, why
And as Saladman did indeed note, I cannot possibly appreciate the skills and experience needed - that's precisely what I'm trying to understand! You seem to be under the impression that I am bypassing that point. I am not. That point is precisely what I am trying to understand. It's the crux of the post
And i should point out that every point you made has no logical nor factual basis. Now you'll say neither does mine. Correct! It's a question, I am trying to understand the logical arguement, not sidestep it. Responses like this are not helpful in the slightest. If you disagree with my post please bring some sort of evidence or logic based arguement. My original post is a question. Responses followed. I then either agreed or disagreed with sound reasoning (such as the computer and e-gates decisions - these are facts).
And to make myself clear I'm not arguing for or against strike action in general and what my views are on that. One very big reason of a strike is to show an employer that the workers are essential. If, as I suspect, they are fairly replaceable this will undermine the strikers/unions position massively.
My views on whether strikes are good or bad, justified or not have not been discussed and are not relevant. If you would like to have a debate about the economics and morals that go with them, by all means on another thread or private messages just not here so as to not distract from the original intention - are UKBF fairly replaceable - if not, why
Anyway, I've said all I'm going to and I suggest that if you are genuinely interested you start a new thread on what the UKBF job role requires.
Dec 13, 2022, 5:24 am
#130
Join Date: Nov 2018
Programs: BAEC Silver
Posts: 912
Would like to point out that this isn't just based of a "30 second interaction". There was a fair bit of research into border force officers before making my post which was then made to see if any points I overlooked.
And to your points I would say that most are incorrect. Forgery (except in blatantly obvious forgery like incorrect front cover) is detected by the passport scanners.
And to your points I would say that most are incorrect. Forgery (except in blatantly obvious forgery like incorrect front cover) is detected by the passport scanners.
The trafficking point I can somewhat agree with but I'm not fully convinced that this skill based. I think it's more intuition and perception along with a couple of pointers of what to look out for. I won't argue that experience definitely helps in that scenario but I don't think it's enough of a point to consider it skilled labour.
The trafficking point I can somewhat agree with but I'm not fully convinced that this skill based. I think it's more intuition and perception along with a couple of pointers of what to look out for. I won't argue that experience definitely helps in that scenario but I don't think it's enough of a point to consider it skilled labour.
However this probably isn't relevant to the thread, so maybe we'd better return to how this is going to affect our travel plans.
Dec 13, 2022, 5:33 am
#131
Join Date: Nov 2018
Programs: BAEC Silver
Posts: 912
Without repeating much of what I have just responded to KARFA:
You do make many good points regarding strikes in general. However, I am solely focused on the strikes of the UKBF.
From where I stand I believe them to be fairly replaceable. If that is the case then asking for 10% pay rise AND job security is not justified - they can be replaced. That's from an economic perspective. A moral perspective is different.
If you believe that they are not replaceable then obviously their demands cannot be undercut by new hires and there is what to talk about. If you believe this to be the case please bring some logical points as to why it is the case.
And to Saladman, KARFA and anyone else: you may make many good points about striking in general. But that's not relevant to the case at hand. I'm more than happy to discuss that somewhere else, just not here.
Here my sole intention is to find out if they're replaceable. If they are then that's a problematic position for unions and strikers. If you do not think they are replaceable, why?
Hope I've been clear enough
You do make many good points regarding strikes in general. However, I am solely focused on the strikes of the UKBF.
From where I stand I believe them to be fairly replaceable. If that is the case then asking for 10% pay rise AND job security is not justified - they can be replaced. That's from an economic perspective. A moral perspective is different.
If you believe that they are not replaceable then obviously their demands cannot be undercut by new hires and there is what to talk about. If you believe this to be the case please bring some logical points as to why it is the case.
And to Saladman, KARFA and anyone else: you may make many good points about striking in general. But that's not relevant to the case at hand. I'm more than happy to discuss that somewhere else, just not here.
Here my sole intention is to find out if they're replaceable. If they are then that's a problematic position for unions and strikers. If you do not think they are replaceable, why?
Hope I've been clear enough
Anyhow, I don't want to be accused of derailing further so happy to continue the discussion privately if you wish.
Dec 13, 2022, 5:35 am
#132
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 503
Again, completely wrong. I'm not quite sure what you think is on the computer - I suspect you've been watching too many spy movies.
For the people who are eligible (and thus don't present an immigration risk) then the eGates allow you through. However if there is an issue (see the Passport at egates thread) then they refer the decision making to an officer. There was a link in the passport thread that explained how this worked. So they aren't making a decision, the officer is.
What is your definition of skilled labour?
Let me ask you: if it's not a case of computer says yes/no, how do the e-gates process people if they cannot make the decision.
Regarding your e-gates point I would argue that most cases where passengers are declined by the gates and then have to go to an officer is solely based off a failed facial ID. Although this is guessing and I can't be to sure but other than that what other reasons would there be to stop a passenger travelling on a UK passport? Or at least instances where PAX have to go to an officer would be significantly reduced and solely reserved for those who pose a threat.
And what do I call skilled labour? In this scenario I mean someone whose skills on the job are not easily replaceable with nothing more than a few weeks training and easing into the position
Dec 13, 2022, 5:44 am
#133
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 503
No matter what job you do, pretty much everyone is replaceable otherwise that job would just die out. Of course Border Force could be replaced by new hires. Eventually, once they undergo the requisite training. But what is the point? The pay, from what I've read in the press, is not particularly high in the first place so replacing them by new hires (presumably on lower pay) isn't going to solve their recruitment crisis (and they do have one). Where do these new hires come from? People don't want to do the job in the first place from what I can see, so sacking them all and getting a new lot in isn't going to be easy. Getting the Army in to do it isn't the answer either since it's a temporary solution in crisis situations.
Anyhow, I don't want to be accused of derailing further so happy to continue the discussion privately if you wish.
Anyhow, I don't want to be accused of derailing further so happy to continue the discussion privately if you wish.
My point and current understanding is that UKBF is replaceable with ease. Not eventually as you put it. I believe within weeks as I'm still not convinced there's that much to it. A far cry from the 7+ years it takes to replace a heart surgeon or the 3/4 years for a lawyer/accountant.
However, I do agree that this has gotten a bit out of hand. This will be my last public response on this matter but just so I can say I told you so: I strongly believe that it's highly likely the strikes will be cancelled as it's just not viable for either side.
That's it from me on this matter, any further comments to my posts please make by private message. Thanks to all who helped further the discussion with useful responses
Dec 13, 2022, 7:14 am
#134
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,127
Just to add some facts to the discussion. It looks like once you are hired as a Border Force officer there is 6-12 months of training required before being unleashed on the public. The length of time required depends on your background (diploma, apprenticeship...ect).
Clearly we are not talking skillnon the level of doctors, engineers, land surveyors..ect, but we also aren't talking about the level of a ditch digger.
Clearly we are not talking skillnon the level of doctors, engineers, land surveyors..ect, but we also aren't talking about the level of a ditch digger.
Dec 13, 2022, 7:16 am
#135
Join Date: Apr 2005
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 313
I keep coming here in the hope that I will see some news about the strike…..