1Aturnleft

Well perhaps save yourself for a proper keyboard because your phone and your fingers are doing little for your cause. There's also nothing obvious about your posts other than it all seems to be a jumbled mess of dates and terminology that makes no sense to anyone.

Prospero

Regarding timelines, the time it took to roll out "Project Dusk" really isn't much different to Delta's roll out of its flat beds, both approx 6 years from start to finish. The main difference being BA completed its conversion programme almost 2 years before Delta started its programme.

British Airways "Project Dusk"
March 2000: First Boeing 747 converted
Q4 2002: LHR fleet converted (approx 100 aircraft)
Mid 2005: LGW fleet converted (approx 5 aircraft)
Mid 2006: MAN fleet converted (1 aircraft)

Delta Air Lines "Business Elite" flat bed upgrade
March 2008: First flat bed (Cirrus I) roll out (777-200LR)
March 2010: 18 Boeing 777s converted
June 2011: 21 Boeing 767-400s converted
August 2011: first 767-300 converted
Year ending 2012: 22/58 767-300s converted
February 2014: 97 aircraft converted



edited to add the Project Stretch timeline for additional context:

British Airways "Project Stretch"
See: Club World Guide
December 2006: First Boeing 747 converted
Year end 2007: 57/57 Boeing 747s converted
September 2008: First Boeing 777 converted
April 2010: 46/46 Boeing 777s converted

hfly

Globalizer, unfortunately I am NOT mistaken, I keep meticulous notes on my flights/dates/cabin, etc and in early 2007 I was on a 777 that was 2 cabin and was OCW.

Back to the original subject however. Even if this were NOT the case, we have established that it was not all done by 2002 or 2003, and was in fact done by sometime in mid 2005, (despite me knowing that I flew it afterwards), so is that a 6 year roll out?

Prospero, I see your DL comparison, which of course if it were truly trying to do apples to apples, would start about a year earlier as IIRC DL announced B/E in late 1998, started converting cabins in late 1998, and had them all complete by the end of 1999, this included at the time something like 57 767's, about a dozen MD-11's and whatever fleet of 777's that DL had at the time (8 I believe). Now the rest of your time line is a bit off, not in terms of dates, but in terms of actual meaning. DL did introduce its first flat bed product on 777LR's as you say, but specifically for those newly arriving aircraft in 2008, in fact your number is just wrong as DL only had 10 LR's...ever, and the other 8 were the ones that were converted. There was no announcement at that time to do the entire fleet or whatever, they were just a subfleet, it should also be noted that DL at the time also at the time acquired NW's fleet and their own near flat product (something that you do not mention), but which doubled DL's longhaul fleet and you make no mentions of those eventual conversion, plus you know post 9/11 Chapter 11 and the worldwide recession and all that in 2008/2009. So DL did not really get into converting their existing fleet until 2011 or so (other than the 777's), and yes with all that craziness it took them a good 4 years. But you then omit the Delta One Suite, you know the thing that BA is now essentially copying (as are many airlines) which Delta announced in 2017, and is pretty much deployed across the entire fleet. So again we are talking about THREE totally new products over the same 20 (or 21 or 22) year period. Not two, with layers of lipstick applied 3 or 4 times.

DYKWIA

So meticulous that you originally said it was 2008?

Globaliser

This is now really sounding like the thirteenth chime of the clock. Or a digger to rival those in the Suez Canal.

As you have such "meticulous" notes, would you care to tell us the date, route, flight number and aircraft registration? That may allow us to work out the date on which the cradle seat was removed from it and NCW installed.

RB211

I'm already on my second tub of (figurative) popcorn!

rb211.

Prospero

hfly, you do realise the Delta's Business Elite seat introduced in 1998 was not a flat bed. It was a factory standard recliner which Delta purchased and refitted to 36 Boeing 767s and 17 MD-11s. The 767 numbers were later boosted by new aircraft deliveries. There is no argument about the speed of the BE conversion but surely you question its relevance and whether the refit programme of a relatively simple 1990s product is a comparable measurement to "Project Dusk". It would be interesting to compare the conversion timeline with BA's earlier cradle seat product.

FYI, the delta timeline included in post #92 is not based on memory. I had to look up all this info - sources being Delta's website, FlyerTalk, and historical fleetest sites. The 777 numbers include 200ER and 200LR types.
Going back to your post #72 which triggered this lively conversation

By what measurement are you basing this statement? Industry standards of 2000, 2006, or 2021?

A misrepresentative statement. In the period of 2000-2008 most other major carriers offered a recliner. A small few such as Lufthansa had introduced sloped flat beds and of course SQ, CX, NZ, and VS did have their own flat bed products but we had to wait until 2006 onwards for a majority of carriers to announce their new products, which as you know also included BA with its "Project Stretch" update.

The "8 across is garbage for passengers" is another statement that deserved more care and qualification. Several airlines are still installing 8-abreast business class cabin layouts, such as United on not just their 777s but also narrower Dreamliners

ermis177

Just curious apart from United and BA do you know any other airline with 8 abreast business class? Also i cannot find any United dreamliners with 8 abreast business class. Are you sure?

hfly

Globaliser, I am not enough of a Trainspotter to take down hull numbers, registrations, etc. Are you? Why don't you ask me to post my name and address while you are at it? Funny though, I make a mistake, post 2008, go back and check and restate that it was in fact 2007, and I am some sort of devil, yet someone says that "all conversions were done by 2003" or whatever, because BA wrote it so, and then makes a similar apology, and its all well and good??!!

So how can I make a mistake in the numbers? Well perhaps because I originally wrote from memory, however perhaps I mixed of one of several trips to Barbados, with trips to St. Lucia, Antigua, and a bunch of other BA flights that I took that decade. Had I only taken one trip in a given year, or only visited a place once or twice I might have better remembered the exact trip, hence why when questioned, I looked at my notes, and corrected myself.

Now Prospero, I am talking about installing a complete business class cabin and concept, you have now changed the definition to solely flat bed seats (although for more than a decade these are one and the same for most major international trunk carriers). The Delta B/E seat at the time was not "bog standard", it was the best Biz product in the sky, with better recline and legroom and the whole product was supposed to be a merger of Business Class and First Class (which they eliminated with its entry). While many airlines then copied it, almost down to the seat itself (they were installed "bog standard", not the other way around), so yes it was an accomplishment done in less than 18 months, and they have done 3 complete cabin refits in the time that BA has done 2 (and for that matter this latest BA refit, will come about more through attrition than anything else. Prospero, you may well have taken your numbers from a Delta site ( DL is no more immune from corporate hyperbole or mistakes than BA), I don't doubt that, however they are still logically wrong. If the LR's were delivered with the new product, then they are not, and were not converted, were they.

8 across is garbage. This is why BA has gotten rid of it, I have flown the new-ish 777 BA suites, and they are not 8 across. Most airlines that do 7 across in Business get slated for the middle seat in the middle section. Please let me know the numerous airlines that are installing business class 8 across.

Prospero

United and Air France both use the Safran Optima product, or an Acumen variant of it

United has this seat in a 8 abreast configuration in its 777/787s and 6 abreast in its 767s. Air France's new Airbus A350-900 is also 8-abreast


Image: Wired

Prospero

Delta's website was not the sole source. I also checked relevant tracking threads posted in the Delta forum. Of course, several Delta 777s came with the Cirrus 1 seats upon delivery but I was being generous in DL's favour

Was this intended as a virtuous statement?

ermis177

First of all I cannot find any United 787 with 8 across. When you do please let me know. Secondly the Air France configuration isn’t 8 across but 1-2-1. The photo you just posted is quite clear. So the “several” airlines is just United on their 777.

Prospero

I hope you will appreciate the care I have taken when applying the 8-breast term, by including layout plans. Here is the UA 787 LOPA, courtesy of paxex.aero



Air France's A350 LOPA is very similar to the image I posted up thread.

SonicStar817

I can see both sides of the argument. While the top down view appears 8 across (especially if the aisle seats were angled in the same direction as the other seats), the seats aren't labelled that way, giving the impression of a 1-2-1 configuration.

Prospero

Each Safran Aero unit is constructed as a pair of seats, positioned side by side with a longitudinal offset. Its a clever arrangement that ticks all the boxes but the reality is it is narrower seat than Safran's other business class products, Collins Super Diamond and NCW.

Air France are pretty honest about the config, as you can see here:




United arguably rather much less so.